Reet Marten Sehr: it is a lie that our community is disappearing
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Not unique to St.Peter's only28 Apr 2023 22:13
Parishioners have more than plummeted at Vana Andres as well. But they have money left from their sale for now.
And the Baptist church has the same problem.
Too much hot air!28 Apr 2023 23:40
💨💨 blow some more💨💨
Reet Marten Sehr29 Apr 2023 06:21
To EWR web manager: If you wish to share my article, please do so without editorial comment in the lead and share only what I wrote. Comments are welcome, but not as a preface which distorts the content. IT IS CONGREGATIONS THAT ARE DISAPPEARING EVERYWHERE, in our increasingly secularized society - NOT THE ESTONIAN CANADIAN COMMUNITY.
A lie29 Apr 2023 10:05
This article is. So true. Try harder, Reet!
La Dame Blanche30 Apr 2023 10:49
Well someone blew a piston. Listen Honey, it is NOT about you, what you think (how you frame your argument) what you rabidly want to control or your past service to this lovely little church (thank you). The panel of Heritage Protectors for the City of Toronto knew ex-actly what they were speaking to, the “human condition”. The Estonian People have a great story and others want to tell it even if you and your ilk have lost your bearings. No one gives a rat’s ass about the 70 holes in the roof, ART trumps all, doncha know?
Overwhelming majority29 Apr 2023 07:52
Reet is totally on point! Hästi õeldud. Now if only the ‘friends’ could learn how to read…..
lugeja30 Apr 2023 10:35
To the person saying that the "friends" can't read, there's no need to be insulting, that does nobody any good. Isn't the community divided enough already without this nonsense?

Interesting article, definitely food for thought and I thank RMS for providing some facts, knowledge is a good thing. That said, it's clear RMS wants the church to be sold and this piece is biased in that direction and that's fair, after all if that's her POV then she's entitled to argue for it. Her words also carry weight as she's not a random bystander, but someone who's had ties to the church for a long time as stated in the article. Having said that, it would be nice to see an article presenting the opposing POV with some facts to back it up and then perhaps an objective piece that considers both sides equally. I have no doubt that RMS is sincere in wanting the best for the community, but that doesn't necessarily mean that what she thinks is best, is indeed best.

There are a few things in this article that don't seem quite right, and paint a picture that is at best incomplete. Let's start with this:

"The church copper roof has numerous leaks and an unaffordable substantial replacement cost"

Unaffordable and substantial are vague terms, some estimates would be helpful.

"HVAC and AC are 50+ years old"
and
"The electrical system is out of date"

This is again vague, and leaves me wondering how big an issue this is.
lugeja part 230 Apr 2023 10:37
"Donations have been on a downward trend for years and don’t come close to covering costs, which are approximately $200,000 plus per annum"

This seems like it's probably accurate, but also misleading at the same time. After all, donations compared to costs isn't what counts, it's revenue compared to costs and donations are only one part of revenue. The article makes no mention of other revenue streams (ie. Salvation Army lease) that exist, and that the potential exists for new revenue streams as well. It also ignores that the possibility exists for cutting costs and this makes one wonder why she is ignoring such important pieces of the puzzle.

"The church will be bankrupt in 2 – 3 years"
and
"There will be no money to maintain a congregation, if the church building isn’t sold"

Perhaps labelling this as a lie is too harsh so I'll just say that this is just wrong. Had RMS said something like the church will be bankrupt in 2-3 years IF NOTHING CHANGES, that would be one thing but who's to say things can't change? The "friends" have presented a number of ideas for increasing revenue and cutting costs, not sure how realistic/viable all of them are but some of them seem logical and reasonable. Surely RMS is aware of what they've proposed, if she has issues with their proposals why not address them instead of just ignoring people who want to save the church? If the facts on the "friends" website are correct, then just the one change of having visiting pastors instead of having one full-time pastor would save 50K and renting out parking spaces could bring in another 42K. And if it's true that as the website says, "we have an impending shortfall of $96,000 in 2023", then wouldn't those changes alone come close to bring the shortfall down to zero? Maybe I'm missing something here but again, assuming the numbers presented by RMS as well as the "friends" are correct, then stating that the church will be bankrupt in 2-3 years seems like a gross misrepresentation of the facts. It seems to me that with a bit of initiative to make a few changes, the overall financial picture could be dramatically improved and perhaps the church can even be saved. Perhaps the purveyors of doom and merchants of gloom are right and the church can't be saved, but there's certainly not enough facts in this article to convince me of this sad inevitability.

RMS says that "I love the church building. I don’t believe there is a congregant of St. Peter’s who doesn’t."

I would only add that there are at minimum hundreds, and perhaps even thousands of people who are not part of the congregation but who nevertheless, also love the church. It's never been just a church, it's also always been something of a community centre. I know I spent my Saturday mornings there for many years as part of the Boy Scouts, I also know it has been a place used for choir practices and I assume a number of other things as well.

It's true that our community is more secular. It seems to me that the only way for the church to survive, is for it's future to be "re-imagined" and going forward there needs to be less emphasis on the being a church part, and more emphasis on it being a community resource and a source of revenue via renting it out.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: lugeja (10:35)
lugeja part 330 Apr 2023 10:37
RMS says that:
"In my opinion: If sold, the congregation should donate remaining funds to our numerous charitable organizations, with a focus on youth, thereby ensuring a long-lasting legacy for the church founders whose primary goal was sustaining Estonian culture in Canada."

What if the church could be saved? Wouldn't that be a more appropriate "legacy"? If there are people with ideas and energy who are willing to help out in this regard, wouldn't it be in the best interest of everyone for the congregation to welcome input from these people? It seems clear that the congregation is now so small, that keeping the church afloat is beyond their capabilities. So why not accept help when it's being offered and explore all avenues to save the church before selling? To quote RMS herself:

"Our community’s strength, vibrancy and future are reflected in these volunteers, who assume leadership roles in our established organizations, and create a positive vision for the future in new and innovative ways."

Wouldn't it be wonderful if a positive new and innovative vision could save the church for future generations? Surely it's worth giving it a try before giving up and selling, what is there to lose by letting people try?

RMS also says that: "There is no doubt in the minds of many, that the current turmoil around St. Peter’s is a “proxy war” for the Estonian House and KESKUS conflict. Both situations, have wreaked havoc with our valuable volunteer resources."

I have no doubt that this is a proxy war for some people, however thinking it is that for everyone is very wrong. There are many people who love the church, it's a beautiful place and precious community asset and there's no reason to assume that everyone is basing their opinions on what's happening (or not happening) with the Keskus. And maybe I'm being too optimistic here (is optimism a sin?) but what if the congregation and the "friends" were to come together, work together and re-imagine the future of and save the church? And what if this resulted in healing (if only partially) the rift in the community caused by the conflict over the sale of the Esto House? Maybe I'm hoping for too much, but one can dream and as the saying goes, "lootus sureb viimasena".
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: lugeja (10:35), lugeja part 2 (10:37)
Thank you, lugeja30 Apr 2023 16:12
Hope springs eternal.
correction of the correction29 Apr 2023 08:46
It appears that EE was too hasty to issue any corrections to Alja Pirosok article. Mislabeling of Mihkel Bach's work and David Kalm's words have been previously published in EE and EWR. VEMU/Kalm are just trying to gaslight everybody.

https://www.eesti.ca/toronto-e...

https://www.eesti.ca/heritage-...
What’s next, Reet?29 Apr 2023 12:56
Great job, way to go! What’s next? It must be Tartu! When do we start? Let’s start the ball rolling now!!
To St.Peter's council, pastor29 Apr 2023 10:04
and all 'keskus affiliated' congregants who voted/vote to sell St.Peter's church ...

"Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ ” Mark 17.11

Definitions:
thief [plural thieves]- a person who steals, especially secretly or without open force; one guilty of theft or larceny.
larcency - the wrongful taking of someone's property or goods, removing them from their owner's possession with intent to convert them to the taker's own use. Misappropriation.
pastoral29 Apr 2023 10:54
Quoting Scripture to benefit yourself is known as bearing false witness. Go back and re-read Ms Sehr's article and then re-examine your heart.
Den of thieves29 Apr 2023 11:14
It’s all about the money for the author. And I’m guessing most of it is already earmarked for some charity. Casting lots already, council and minister? More pastoral care and teaching is needed in this congregation for it to survive in any form.
to Pastoral01 May 2023 14:03
How does that Bible quote bear "false witness"? To outsiders, it definitely appears that some larceny and chicanery (with voting) is going on at St. Peter's. Were not all board members and the organist going to resign as the last vote was not carried?
Reet Marten Sehe29 Apr 2023 14:02
To What’s next Reet?
The funds from sale of church would be substantial. As stated in my article, only a fraction would be needed to rent space elsewhere, as Vana Andres has been doing since sale of their church. It would be up to the congregation to make all decisions. I propose donating to our many youth organizations such as koolid, Lasteaed, gaidid, skaudid, lastelaagrid, as well as choirs, folk dance etc. And why not Tartu (not sure if this is possible and whether it’s charitable or not) and VEMU and yes, even some to KESKUS. I am not intentionally leaving anyone out here, so please don’t take offence if your organization isn’t named). What an amazing legacy this could be.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Reet Marten Sehr (06:21)
Money honey!💰29 Apr 2023 15:42
So the money has been earmarked, with a fraction going to the church. How kind of you to arrange all this! With all the talk of saving the congregation, it just proves the point - it’s not about the congregation or the building! Not at all! It’s about the bottomless pit on the subway that will serve these organizations. So give them Tartu as well, why not?
dead cat29 Apr 2023 16:16
RMS is wrong in thinking that we can somehow avoid the fate experienced by so many other post WWII immigrant/refugee communities in Canada. The current demographic situation can only be described as a "dead cat bounce".

The only escape from this inevitability would be an influx of Estonians from Estonia, much like it has happened in Chicago and to some extent in NY (and Finland, Brussels, etc).

KESKUS, if ever built to conclusion, will be a white elephant, testament to their creators' folly.
...29 Apr 2023 19:07
To: Dead cat

as in “dead cat bounce”
to: Dead Cat01 May 2023 21:33
A dead cat bounce is a temporary, short-lived recovery of asset prices from a prolonged decline or a bear market that is followed by the continuation of the downtrend.

Frequently, downtrends are interrupted by brief periods of recovery—or small rallies—during which prices temporarily rise.

The name "dead cat bounce" is based on the notion that even a dead cat will bounce if it falls far enough and fast enough.

https://www.investopedia.com/t...
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: ... (19:07)
Jaak Järve01 May 2023 17:36
"Kui rahvas hoiab kokku,
jääb Eesti püsima.
Meie kõikide üle valvab Jumal,
kes ei lase heal seemnel raisku minna."
Konstantin Päts
Freida04 May 2023 22:25
Thank God RMS speaks the truth. Doing the right thing. All those who oppose are fools. Friends looking for angles. Like they always have.
Notice to Readers05 May 2023 12:18
Correction to Freida.
"Friends looking like angels. Like they always have been".
To Freida07 May 2023 11:26
You must have selective listening- RMS totally misconstrued what was said at the hearing- that’s disinformation. That’s serious. And her followers are deaf- wake up! This church can and should be saved- it is the house of God, no matter what RMS thinks.
To not unique to St. Peter's07 May 2023 15:03
Compare the activities of the 3 churches you cite*. The data is from the Canadian Revenue Agency. In its self-description St. Peter’s stands out:

St. Peter’s Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church of Toronto:

Ongoing programs: Operate a church and its related activities

Yet St. Peter’s is in the Top 5 - of all Estonian-related charities and foundations – by “charitable program” $353, 693. What does it DO?

Vana Andres St. Andrew’s Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Congregation in Toronto:

Ongoing programs: We hold worship services weekly. We give pastoral care. We provide ministries for women, men, youth and children weekly. Operators and administrators of a religious congregation for the benefit of its members and the community.


Estonian Baptist Church of Toronto:

Ongoing programs: The primary purpose of the Estonian Baptist Church of Toronto is to proclaim & teach Christian doctrine, to promote a Christian lifestyle to members of the congregation and adherents in accordance with the teachings of the holy bible. We also organize and hold religious services, Christian education programs, activities and youth work. We teach and perform sacred music, direct and perform welfare & relief activities both in Canada and abroad, regular weekly services and meetings are held in the church facility as well as in nursing & seniors’ homes.


St. Peter’s self-description may suffice for bureaucratic purposes, but it says nothing of church practices.

Is this for lack of knowledge?

How does St. Peter’s conceive of what it does? The description says nothing of the importance of language and the Word.

Is this for lack of awareness or understanding?

Who is responsible for this? Someone notes in a comment to the earlier 2015 CRA data** that the list of directors is out of date: “No one is certain of how many are left, but we know 3 have left for sure. So wrong to give readers an impression that this is a well functioning institution!”

I recall a hint of secularization within the church at a wedding I attended where Rev. Taul, standing before the couple, stated that statistically there was a 50/50 chance of a wedding succeeding, i.e. not ending in divorce. I did not care for this style.

The young lady who had moved to Toronto and brought her husband who was not Estonian to the church, regretted that the Toronto community was cliquey.

Nowhere is this more evident than in the “Keskus” which has not reflected the Christian virtue of charity for any of the communities that feel they have stolen from them their future, on the odds of their “success”. (When the name of the game is money there is no place for rivals they cannot contain.)

*https://www.eesti.ca/estonian-charitable-organizations-in-canada-2016/article51412

**https://www.eesti.ca/estonian-charitable-organizations-in-canada-what-charity-to-support/article49383
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Thank you, lugeja (16:12)
Comment08 May 2023 11:06
Seems that aome churches like to embellish their activities to the CRA.
Subjective view08 May 2023 16:56
I am sorry Reet, but your article incites more division in our community and draws attention to how our Estonian community lacks leadership. I am not sure whether you have someone to proof-read what you are writing who is neutral or objective but this should be done before your reputation in Estonia suffers even more.
Our Estonian history in Toronto and in Canada is complicated. We have always had a very diverse community. The founding minister of Peetri kirik played a far more important role than most people realize. His work in the first decades founding the congregation, building the church and maintaining harmony in our community should be seen as examples.
The division we are witnessing is the result of the inability of our community leadership to work in the best interests of the larger Estonian community and future generations.
Selling the Estonian House will go down in history as the biggest blunder in Canada. If St. Peter's Church is also sold, we can only blame ourselves for the final destruction of our Estonian community in Toronto.
If the congregation would have been important a different minister would have been chosen and the present minister would have been sent back years ago. Sadly, the church council was indifferent to the needs of its congregation. Those with access and knowledge to the church's inner
To subjective view08 May 2023 17:57
Thank you. Really thank you. Thank you for proving RMS point. You and the rest of the extreme minority that are wishing the end of our community. You wish it so at least once you would be proven correct. But as pointed out in the article, and evident to those in touch with reality, this is not correct. Our community is thriving. Growing. Next generation of children participating. This mob of naysayers(“aka the friends”) are determined to destroy anything not created in their vision. On a more ironic note, most of them are childless. As for the rest of us, the majority, we will carry our traditions, we will move our community forward. You are welcome to join to. Our hand ins outstretched. All you have to do is take it.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Overwhelming majority (07:52)
Subjective view10 May 2023 18:54
You are tone deaf! The community is divided. What is it about that you don’t get? This shows just how much we are divided - take off your blinders! Reach out to the Friends, they are really nice, contrary to what you think.
Silent majority11 May 2023 13:53
The community is divided…in your opinion. The reality is not so. You have a very vocal minority spewing misinformation and practicing character assassination. What RMS is doing here is pointing all this out. Community decisions have been made by elected community leaders. You’re never going to please everyone. But as life teaches us, things will not always go your way. Sometimes you need to go along to get along. Trust me, you will thank us later.
La Dame Blanche09 May 2023 08:53
To reply to the really good Subjective review-I’ll show you a vision: A strange little building of facetted glass, shuddering over the rush of trains below, inside somewhere, maybe, a violin solo is interrupted by that low frequency rumble every seven and a half minutes. The odour of garlic sauce wafting over a courtyard from Shwarma King, the main restaurant tenant. A scrawny White Pine leans tortuously on its last legs, the Birches have been replaced three times already, all plantings struggling in the cavern, of thirty three story towers that surround the site, the tower on the corner not of our design and purpose anymore.
So no, the friendzies, crazies, those who cannot read, those you wish would just go away, those without kinder (really?) do not share your “vision” but we will bring you a kimp of lilled when you find yourself in the hullumaja.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: La Dame Blanche (10:49)
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