EESTI MAJA JA MADISONI PROJEKT PÄRAST KOOSOLEKUT Eesti Elu
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
raccoon101 May 2017 19:42
Oh just stop it and give EM $2,000,000 to do the necessary renovations. You must miss university to write such essays but they do not solve the problem nor even define it.
voter200002 May 2017 17:36
It is exhausting to read this shallow, mean, insulting, 'know-it-all', 'in your face' quip about Eda Sepp and her well thought out, informative, knowledgeable article and perspective. Please, 'define' the EM problem in your words, explain them and write your vision as knowledgeably, as thoroughly and as in-depth as Eda Sepp has done. Your extensive review/report/essay whatever you are going to call it, would be welcoming for most shareholders, because at this recent meeting/vote, (which hundreds of shareholders attended --lined up out the back door, no less), any inquiry of existing problems, or of the present state of EM affairs, how and why EM got so bad in the first place and under whose watch, were blatantly avoided....and ultimately shut down. That was not friendly, not open. No responsibility taken, no accountability. It is unsettling and disconcerting. It is dismissive of the community, its concerns, its questions, its own people. Not a confidence giver.Why is inquiry and discussion unwelcome? Why and for how long has the community been kept in the dark about all of this anyway? Why the cloak? Why this mocking commentary towards someone who caringly and intelligently writes a different point of view such as Eda Sepp has, complete with questions, not only answers? Alternate solutions and ideas CAN exist btw, besides this one option of selling the EM's huge paid off property and attempting to glorify the move to a small, unbuildable, boxed-in side-street parking lot, above the intersection of 2 underground subway lines, in Tartu College's constant massive towering shadow. Alternate solutions to EM's situation were neither presented NOR even requested! Now that the vote is over, surely the shareholders are allowed to be informed of all the problems and issues the EM has, be they financial, physical or otherwise. I look forward to a similarily extensive, well thought out and informative assessment of the Eesti Maja from you. Start with itemizing the 2 milliion dollars you say is needed and what repair takes priority.
Evi Vahtra03 May 2017 10:49
2 million is just a drop in the bucket.
I have heard conservative estimates of 6-8 million, barring the inevitable environmental cleanup that will likely become necessary once the walls are opened.
Millal lollus lõppeb02 May 2017 06:05
Kust sa ometi võtad et rohkem kui pool olid Madisoni vastu? See on puhas spekulatsioon. Mitmed suurte hääleblokkidega organisatsioonid teatavasti hääletasid vastu, äkki on suurem hulk rahvast siiski edasi liikumise poolt? Autor ei ole valmis lahti laskma oma illusioonist ning ei ole suuteline aru saama et suur hulk inimesi ei nõustu temaga. Veider, ta peab oma isiklikku seisukohta ka moraalseks tõeks, just kui tsiteeriks Jumala sõna. Seega muud inimesed on tema jaoks rahvareeturid. Miks? Sest nad näevad et Eesti Maja ei jää naljalt püsima? Haruldane ja vägagi kurb vaadata
Relevant pts in English02 May 2017 07:13
Relevant points in the article in English (roughly paraphrased, condensed):

1) Suuremas saalis on ka lükatav vahesein, mis kontsertide puhul eraldadab akendeäärse pika ala. See teeb ruumi veelgi kitsamaks kui esialgne 50 jalga (Jg) (15 m). Kuhu vaheseinad lükatakse, pole veel otsustatud. Kuna see ruum on “multipurpose” (flex space, Project plan e), mis tähendab, et on sobiv kontsertideks, spordiks, loenguteks ja pidudeks, oleks vaja kusagile paigutada ka toolid, lauad, spordiriistad, elektroonika, tiibklaver, jm. Tundub, et siin hakkab vaevama veel suurem ruumipuudus kui Eesti Majas. Need on asjad, mida lihtsalt välja jätta pole võimalik. Meile on kurdetud, et Eesti Majas on ainult 3 kööki ja need on halvasti paigutatud. Uue hoone teisel korrusel, mis oleks eestlastele kasutada, pole ühtegi kööki. 11 Madisoni maja köök on kaugel keldris.

Where are we going to store chairs, tables, sports equipment, electronic equipment, concert grand piano, etc. We will have serious space issues at Madison. The criticism of the present Estonian House has been that we only have 3 kitchens, which are poorly placed. According to Madison plans, there is no kitchen next to the main hall, the kitchen will be in the basement.


2) Kui terve hoone, 18 miljonit + rohkem, on valmis, jääb eestlastele osaliselt üürida hoone ülemine, teine korrus, kus on 4 klassiruumi, üks suurem saal, 2 eenduvat ristkülikulist pikemat kitsast ruumi

When the new 18M+ building is finished, Estonians will be partially able to rent the second floor, where we have 4 classrooms, one larger hall, 2 long and narrow rectangular rooms …


3) Millal rippuv saal ja parempoolne hoonetiib ehitatakse, ei tea, kuid raha on puudus rohkem kui $10 miljonit. Kust puuduv summa tuleb, pole meile kusagil veel näidatud. Samas saaks Eesti Maja kindlasti hakkama $2 miljoniga.

From where 10M will come for the Madison structure is unknown. We could salvage the old house for 2M.


4) Hoonet on lihtsalt lastud laguneda. Kes olid juhatusse valitud maja eest hoolitsema, on pannud energia hoopis sellest lahti saamisele, lammutamisele ja müümisele.
The Broadview house has been left to decay. Those who were elected to care for the house have been preoccupied with getting rid of it, demolishing and selling it.


5) On olnud Tallinn ja Tartu, Torontos vähemalt kaks kirikut ja ka Eesti Maja ning Tartu College. Viimaseid ühte toppides teeksime karuteene eesti ühiskonnale ja kaotaksime palju raha, ehk pankrotistumegi, kaotaksime ka suure osa eesti kogukonnast.

We have Tallinn and Tartu. In Toronto we have at least two churches, and the Estonian House and Tartu College. To put the two together would be a disservice to the community and we would lose much money, or we might even be bankrupting ourselves, and we would be losing a large part of the Estonian community.
lugeja02 May 2017 12:13
From where 10M will come for the Madison structure is unknown. We could salvage the old house for 2M.


If this is true then it seems like a poor decision has been made. Maybe it would cost more than 2M to salvage the old house? It does sound like the problems with the old house have been exaggerated though - it's been made to sound like everyone setting foot inside the place is risking their lives.


The Broadview house has been left to decay. Those who were elected to care for the house have been preoccupied with getting rid of it, demolishing and selling it.


Perhaps I'm wrong but from what I have seen and heard, this seems harsh but fair.
Fair and balanced04 May 2017 08:28
If Eda Sepp says it will cost $2M to fix the old house, she must be right, as she is the preeminent expert in this domain. In fact, I assume she is being conservative. I have heard through the grapevine that we could fix the old house and build a beautiful new solarium suspended over the grand hall, with stunning views overlooking the valley, for $500,000, with volunteer labour and good business savvy along with some pep talk and moral support from friends in Eesti.

The only unfortunate part is that this has not been done already. Who has been asleep at the switch? My only conclusion is that it must be due to greed, avarice and elitist conspiracies within our community. The fact that an old building that never had a capital reserve is now in need of repairs is shocking. I am DUMBFOUNDED that this could be allowed to happen!

Most confusing of all is why there has been no fundraising drive to spend millions fixing up the house, in parallel to the tulevik work. Yes the old house would have been torn down for the condo project anyway but our community is wealthy, we could have afforded it. Had we made these shrewd decisions back then, we would now have a glimmering Eesti Maja with five times the rentals instead of the decrepit building we have. Of course everyone should have known the condos would never work in the first place. 95% of shareholders of course supported condo redevelopment, but I am going to assume that 94% of those were shadowy large organizations acting against our true interests. If this is true, simple math tells us that 5% of "real" people were against redevelopment with only 1% for. I am no mathematician but that is FIVE TIMES!

Eesti Maja is our community home and must be saved at all costs. I might prefer renting Läti Maja myself, but I love having the option to rent Eesti Maja. Consolidation is also morally unjust, as there has always been a Tartu College and an Eesti Maja since the beginning of recorded time or at least as long as I can remember. Also, let's please not forget about the local residents. If our community cannot conjure up the money needed to save Eesti Maja for ourselves, we should at least do it for our neighbours.
EK02 May 2017 10:16
Parandus! Kokku oli hääletajaid 3276 osatähte. Peaks rohkem tähelepanelik olema.
Jurist02 May 2017 11:59
Parandus parandusele: hääleõiguslikke registreeriajid oli 3276, hääletajaid aga ainult 3207. 69, kes ei viitsinud küllalt kauaks kohale jääda, loobusid vabatahtlikult oma hääleõigusest. Peaks tõesti tähelepanelikum olema.
New EH Board Leaders03 May 2017 04:54
A Board member for 11 years has commented, in the aftermath of the April 25 meeting, on the analysis from the Eesti Majandus Klubi* of the requirements of a business case for the Madison project. He asks the rather remarkable question "Who are we keeping the [Estonian] House for anyway?". His "guess" as to how all the community needs could be met at Madison should be compared especially by Estonian House shareholders with all that Eda Sepp has investigated, before they make their way to the annual meeting on May 3, at which they will elect new Board members.

What does his comment communicate about the "we" of his question, and about the "dubious honour", as he puts it, of his experience as a Board member at Estonian House? It is worth reading and considering as an example of prevalent thinking. The Toronto Estonian diaspora community is in serious need of a counter-balance in leadership.

This longtime Board member begins: "In addition to assessing the viability of the Madison location, the business case for remaining or leaving 958 Broadview also needs consideration". He then goes on to list, as a business case, some personal anecdotes and conjectures. He seems unaware of what happened at the 2012 shareholders' meeting, in which they were asked to approve a resolution to extract maximum value from Estonian House, i.e. to not renovate and restore. Readers should revisit the news report of that meeting, to see how early on and how exactly questions went unanswered by the board, about the basis for that decision. [I am putting some relevant extracts below.]

In responding to this board member's comment I recalled similarly unanswered questions at the 2017 "town hall". His rather disingenuous comment on the analysis from the Estonian Majandus Klubi, and the way in which decisions about Estonian House have been made, brought to mind the Greek concept of "idiocy", to explain the failure of the EM Tulevik Committee to respond to questions.

So, "Who are we keeping the [Estonian] House for anyway?", he asks. The Greek concept of “idiot” refers to a “private person”. An idiot in Athenian democracy was someone who was characterized by self-centeredness and concerned almost exclusively with private—as opposed to public—affairs. Idiocy was the natural state of ignorance into which all persons were born, and citizens were made through education. Declining to take part in public life, such as democratic government of the polis (city state), was considered dishonourable. Over time the term "idiot" shifted away from its original connotation of selfishness and came to refer to individuals with overall bad judgment.

In a topsy-turvy turn of events, with the last resolution, the shareholders of the Estonian House non-profit corporation were asked to give up their power of decision-making. And so they have now been denied the honour, or in modern terms the right, to participate in public life, by idiots who apparently do not recognize the need to engage with the community, to know its wishes and needs.

Our thanks must go to Eda Sepp for her diligence in unpacking for us all to see, what should not go unnoticed by anyone who cares about the future of Estonian House. That includes specifics of the decision-making that lies ahead. In light of what is at stake, Estonian House surely needs “citizens” on its Board.


"Mujale kolimise puhul tuleb mängu rohkem kui ainult uue sobiva asukoha leidmine, mis pole kaugeltki lihtne... Südame häält ei tohiks alahinnata. Olemasolev maja soetati mitte ainult rahakottide toel, vaid ka südamete sunnil.

Võimalikke kompromisse on välja pakutud kaks. Arhitekt Guido Laikve kava teostada olemasoleva maja ümberehitamine järk-järgult, nii et tegevuses ei tekiks katkestust, on leidnud palju positiivset vastukaja. Miks tulevikukomitee seda võimalust arvestatavaks ei pea, sellest võib olla kõneldud, KUID KÕNELUSTE TULEMUSI POLE AVALIKUSTATUD. ..

Ei suuda ka aru saada, miks on nii kergekäeliselt hüljatud Läti Kultuurikeskusega ühinemise mõte....

Koosoleku juurde tagasi tulles mõjus mõnigal määral häirivalt, et kuigi ESITATI HULGALISELT ASJALIKKE KÜSIMUSI, olid need suunatud VALEDELE ISIKUTELE. C&W (Cushman & Wakefield) ESINDAJAD OLID SUNNITUD KORDUVALT SELETAMA, et NENDE EKSPERTIIS PIIRDUB KINNISVARATURU TUNDMISEGA. Enamusele küsimustest PIDANUKS vastused andma EM Tuleviku Komitee, mille liikmeskond tunneb eesti rahva soove ja vajadusi"**.

*http://www.eesti.ca/eesti-maja-estonian-house-a-business-eesti-majandus-klubi-esimees-est-eng-eesti-elu/article49586

**http://www.eesti.ca/eesti-maja-otsib-edasiliikumiseks-suunda/article36223
raskete süüdistuste loopimine?03 May 2017 07:52
Silma jäi üks lause. "Kes olid juhatusse valitud maja eest hoolitsema, on pannud energia hoopis sellest lahti saamisele, lammutamisele ja müümisele." Kas antud lause puhul pole tegemist otsese ja laimava valega? Kui ajalehti uskuda, siis on aktsionärid juba aastaid praeguse maja lammutamise poolt hääletanud, seega ei saa kuidagi väita et keegi oleks juhatust valinud maja korda tegema.
No hersay here!03 May 2017 15:03
No jah, pr. Tarkus, kui lausa Teie olete kuulanud, siis see pole mingi kuulujutt.
mõtted...7 venda03 May 2017 16:02
Mäletan kuidas Saaremaalt tulnud vana tädi, meie lapsehoidja, seletas meile (suures joones) novelli 'Seitse Venda". Sobiv mälestus praegusel Toronto Eesti Maja olukorras ja üldiselt Toronto eestlaskonna suhtes..... Ühesõnaga kokkuvõtlikult "vennad omavahel kaklesid ja tülitsesid nii et tuttid lendasid" ütles see vana tädi alati, "aga, kui saun põlema läks, siis tulid kõik appi"! Ilmselt Toronto Eesti Maja ka põleb praegu. Kas vaatame pealt ja laseme maha põleda? või läheme appi?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: voter2000 (17:36)
Uskumatu03 May 2017 18:34
Remind me again why the sharesholders of Eesti Maja are obliged to pay off some millions of Tartu College mismanaged overexpenditures? Oh, so the future gap of at least $10 million will be paid by....who???...without even ownership shares? What's next...naming rights for the glass EM2 from a rich philanthropist?
What have we learned?03 May 2017 18:50
I too commend Eda's detailed analysis and the consideration of alternate options.

Not blaming anyone for the outcome of April 25th, as it is clear:
- If you aren’t one of the community leaders that needed to be persuaded
- If you weren’t a shareholder
- Or even if you were a shareholder but didn’t have a significant number of votes
- If you didn’t have influence over individuals or groups that did
- Or if you were not a board member
then YES, YOU WERE EXCLUDED. And it was a fantastic campaign, in retrospect. Planned behind closed doors but nevertheless effective. Smart and well executed ‘leaders’ of this ‘sustainable’ plan.

One miss is that there are Estonians and non-Estonians alike who could and would come to the table with a plan for an equally sustainable future that includes not only the current EH site, but also the needs and interests of all community members and in the spirit with which this community was originally created.

Yes within our own community – call them nostalgics or frugal or a whole host of other monikers – they are:
- the Older Gen
- and Not-So-Old-Gen
- and Younger Gen alike
- Shareholders and Non-Shareholders
- Individuals, Community Groups and Leaders
Many have put in countless volunteer hours over the years.
Some have money even.
...they would have gladly come to the table IF ASKED - IF INCLUDED.
They too have the skills, qualifications, experience, expertise to have input on a COLLABORATIVE & INCLUSIVE approach encompassing the needs of the entire community. An approach truly reflective of the social fabric of 2017 Toronto, Canada.

Instead, those who question or oppose or offer up alternatives are dubbed ‘activists’ and even openly blamed worldwide for the discord amongst us.

The reality is, whichever way you razor-slice it: without the 4Orgs backing, without their persuasion of community leaders, without in some cases consolidating to the benefit of the plan so community leaders and groups would eventually ‘clearly come around’, without all of these ‘volunteer’ efforts the result would have been a resounding NO.

The reality is, after 3 or 7 or we will never really know how many years of planning, there is an ROI at stake. Like the plethora of questions, some finally answered by the 4Orgs at the 11th hour, this too is kept behind closed doors.

The reality is, if Madison moves forward there will be more support to come for this ‘sustainable’…er…closed door plan. Consolidation for one, in the form of Joekaaru and Seedrioru perhaps? In answer to the Estonian House lasketiir closing already Seedrioru was offered up as a 'solution'. Was this foreshadowing of the soon-to-be told story of how Joekaaru is similarly hanging on by a thread? Followed by another vote to sell the land to help fund Madison perhaps? Where are those well-meaning volunteers working countless hours to keep JK Jazz going, or is this not part of the plan? Time will tell but if it should play out this way it will be equally tragic.

In the meantime, we can all take comfort in knowing that one day we will have a great new glass museum to tour in Toronto’s ‘culture corridor’ to remind us, our children and children’s children, the history of our Canadian-Estonian community that once was.

And so we move forward. Emotionally charged on both sides, no one is exempt. You need only reflect on how we got to where we are to understand how the ‘fissures’ have been created. For a nation and a community that has been through so much, it seems we here in Toronto haven’t learned a thing about what might constitute a genuinely sustainable future, one with common community interests genuinely at its focal point.
an unhealthy liaison04 May 2017 06:50
“For a nation and a community that has been through so much, it seems we here in Toronto haven’t learned a thing about what might constitute a genuinely sustainable future, one with common community interests genuinely at its focal point.”

Well said. What are we teaching the younger generation, our future leaders? The 4orgs have made the community bend to their will. This is not the way to build a community together with its members. This is dictating by members who think they have privilege in the community; this process is tokenism at its worst. This process has been divisive because people who have been entrusted to lead have not conducted an inclusive process. The community will survive, but at what cost? It could have been a healthier one.
Skill sets ...04 May 2017 17:33
Each of us has a skill set which each of us should put to best use. Life would be boring if we all looked alike. I am puzzled why anyone would want to offer advice which is not consistent with their background and training. Eda is an art historian and I admire her contribution to "Art of the Baltics". Let the engineers, architects, financial types, etc. apply their talents in conducting the due diligence process. Having the essential experience and training is a prerequisite.
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