Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
From what I read earlier, Talvi was part of the previous council who said that it would take ~1.5 million to fix the leaking roof and the new council got it done for less than one percent of that. I note that Talvi doesn't contradict this basic fact so financial competence does seem to be an issue here, and a pretty big issue at that.
It is my understanding that the congregation has voted, the decision to not sell the church was made, and based on this leaking roof issue alone it feels like this was the right decision and there was no real reason to sell. It seems that the new council has accomplished a lot in a short time and I look forward to seeing what they can accomplish in the coming years. I thank them for their selfless efforts to save the church which has a rich, storied history within our community and wish them all the best going forward.
I don't see that Talvi's public bellyaching serves any purpose other than further dividing the community and who's purpose does that serve? What's done is done. Those who wanted to sell didn't get their wish but things don't always go the way we would like them to, that's just life, hopefully they can get over it at some point and who knows, if the church keeps thriving going forward, maybe one day they'll even be happy that they didn't get their way.
It is my understanding that the congregation has voted, the decision to not sell the church was made, and based on this leaking roof issue alone it feels like this was the right decision and there was no real reason to sell. It seems that the new council has accomplished a lot in a short time and I look forward to seeing what they can accomplish in the coming years. I thank them for their selfless efforts to save the church which has a rich, storied history within our community and wish them all the best going forward.
I don't see that Talvi's public bellyaching serves any purpose other than further dividing the community and who's purpose does that serve? What's done is done. Those who wanted to sell didn't get their wish but things don't always go the way we would like them to, that's just life, hopefully they can get over it at some point and who knows, if the church keeps thriving going forward, maybe one day they'll even be happy that they didn't get their way.
So breaking the rules, dumping tradition, ignoring the constitution, disregarding ONCA and the Letters Patent, are all OK?
Wow!!!
Wow!!!
If memory serves, the previous Council stated that the estimated cost to REPLACE the roof was $1.5M.
Implication was that the roof needed to be fixed/replaced and this was going to cost 1.5 million dollars, money the church did not have and does not have, therefore it is unaffordable, and we have to sell.
The $1.5M was a legitimate estimate. You can to a half-assed job and defer the ultimate for a while or tackle the problem head on and fix it properly. To fix the roof to last another 60-70 years, it will cost $1.5M but to fix it to last just until the church goes insolvent in one or two years will cost $15,000. Choose your poison!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20)
You seems to be assuming that the church will be insolvent within 1-2 years. What are you basing this on?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: lugeja (07:09)
I find it immensely amusing that this group in particular, is talking about their desire ‘not to respond to rumours, misinformation, and provocation in a public forum’. When in fact those are very the tactics they thmselves used (and continue to use) in order to subvert the keskus project. The fact remains, their ‘successes’ at the church are a direct result of the dedicated efforts of the previous council. They continue to ride the coattails of these brave volunteers who recognized the need to make decisions based in reality. The community at large knows this, and as such, this present council will have a lot to answer for one day.
And you, härra tohkter, will also be answering for your own self, if and when the Keskus boondoggle turns out to be something like the Tallinna Linnahall...
What are these things that the current council has to answer for?
"... this present council will have a lot to answer for one day."
1. Keeping the St. Peter's church alive for our community?
2. Making St. Peter's financially viable?
3. Not bringing in a Soviet era minister?
4. Putting St. Peter's congregation ahead of the wishes of Keskus?
"... this present council will have a lot to answer for one day."
1. Keeping the St. Peter's church alive for our community?
2. Making St. Peter's financially viable?
3. Not bringing in a Soviet era minister?
4. Putting St. Peter's congregation ahead of the wishes of Keskus?
They will answer for all the things pointed out in the "Corrections" above! Stay tuned...
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40)
So where does this come from, "in order to subvert the keskus project"?
Please share how the current board at St. Peter's is subverting keskus? How exactly are they doing that?
St. Peters board appears only to be working on getting their church into good financial order?
Please share how the current board at St. Peter's is subverting keskus? How exactly are they doing that?
St. Peters board appears only to be working on getting their church into good financial order?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: pray tell (12:22)
As Dr. Maimets was our family's physician for many years, I kindly ask that she be addressed or referred to as "Dr.".
Elmars Berzins
Elmars Berzins
Most doctors are good doctors in the eyes of most patients. Doctors come high in the popularity stakes in polls, compared with other professions or trades. Furthermore, familiarity tends to breed contentment, not contempt. But there’s a problem here. EE has published Dr. Talvi’s piece titled “Open Column” (Avatud Veerg) in Estonian, yet placed that in the “Community” section. Only the English “Serious problems with…”, originally paywalled, is in “Opinion and Politics”. This continues an EE, or perhaps only the former church council’s, tradition of treating different folks to different messages.
What differentiates a “column” from other forms of journalism is that it is a regular feature in a publication – written by the same writer and usually on the same subject area or theme each time – and that it typically, but not universally, contains the author's opinion or point of view. A column states an opinion. It is said to be like an open letter. In fact Maimets writes a column for the EE “Lifestyle” section, where it is understood that the opinion of interest to readers is a medical opinion.
Is there an intended “Community correspondent”? Wikipedia refers to “Columns” produced by “Community correspondents” that almost universally focus on community events at an extremely localized scale, often from a personal viewpoint. “The writers typically have little professional journalistic training and instead of building their articles around major events and themes often focus on the day to day lives and interactions of the people and places in their community. These columns have been a staple in local [N.A.] newspapers for around 100 years, offering editors cheap copy to fill pages with, while also providing a unique look at local events and news”, or here “problems”, “serious problems”.
By contrast, an Op-ed or Opinion piece is a short newspaper column that represents the strong, informed, and focused opinion of a writer on an issue of relevance to a targeted audience. A ”how-to” from Harvard U. Communications states: “The first line of an op-ed is crucial. The opening ‘hook’ may grab the reader’s attention with a strong claim, a surprising fact, a metaphor, a mystery, or a counter-intuitive observation that entices the reader into reading more. The opening also briefly lays the foundation for your argument.” Maimets’ opening does not qualify: “St. Peter's Lutheran Church of Toronto has a new Council since May 31 last year, when the motion to sell the church did not pass. The previous Council had recommended selling our property, since the costs of upkeep proved unaffordable”. While there is a judgment of sorts in her “title”, there is no foundation in the opening for an argument. The writing is not judicious.
Not surprisingly, the “Correction” is peculiar, although EE has established a certain heterodoxy or non-conformity with journalistic ethics and protocol. Maimets is upset (#3) about a “mutation” of tense from past to present, and it certainly does make a difference with regard to factual claims, but did she not write or at least read the Estonian: “Eelmine juhatus oli soovitanud kinnistu müüa, kuna kirikuhoone ülalpidamiskulud on (“are”, not “were”) kogudusele üle jõu”?
Wasn’t this the crux of the motion to sell the church, which did not pass for lack of sufficient trust or evidence? Not the sky but the roof was falling down, only a replacement would do, to the tune of $1.5 million! Clearly a proven unattainable notion of the past, clearly so much has since been accomplished.
What differentiates a “column” from other forms of journalism is that it is a regular feature in a publication – written by the same writer and usually on the same subject area or theme each time – and that it typically, but not universally, contains the author's opinion or point of view. A column states an opinion. It is said to be like an open letter. In fact Maimets writes a column for the EE “Lifestyle” section, where it is understood that the opinion of interest to readers is a medical opinion.
Is there an intended “Community correspondent”? Wikipedia refers to “Columns” produced by “Community correspondents” that almost universally focus on community events at an extremely localized scale, often from a personal viewpoint. “The writers typically have little professional journalistic training and instead of building their articles around major events and themes often focus on the day to day lives and interactions of the people and places in their community. These columns have been a staple in local [N.A.] newspapers for around 100 years, offering editors cheap copy to fill pages with, while also providing a unique look at local events and news”, or here “problems”, “serious problems”.
By contrast, an Op-ed or Opinion piece is a short newspaper column that represents the strong, informed, and focused opinion of a writer on an issue of relevance to a targeted audience. A ”how-to” from Harvard U. Communications states: “The first line of an op-ed is crucial. The opening ‘hook’ may grab the reader’s attention with a strong claim, a surprising fact, a metaphor, a mystery, or a counter-intuitive observation that entices the reader into reading more. The opening also briefly lays the foundation for your argument.” Maimets’ opening does not qualify: “St. Peter's Lutheran Church of Toronto has a new Council since May 31 last year, when the motion to sell the church did not pass. The previous Council had recommended selling our property, since the costs of upkeep proved unaffordable”. While there is a judgment of sorts in her “title”, there is no foundation in the opening for an argument. The writing is not judicious.
Not surprisingly, the “Correction” is peculiar, although EE has established a certain heterodoxy or non-conformity with journalistic ethics and protocol. Maimets is upset (#3) about a “mutation” of tense from past to present, and it certainly does make a difference with regard to factual claims, but did she not write or at least read the Estonian: “Eelmine juhatus oli soovitanud kinnistu müüa, kuna kirikuhoone ülalpidamiskulud on (“are”, not “were”) kogudusele üle jõu”?
Wasn’t this the crux of the motion to sell the church, which did not pass for lack of sufficient trust or evidence? Not the sky but the roof was falling down, only a replacement would do, to the tune of $1.5 million! Clearly a proven unattainable notion of the past, clearly so much has since been accomplished.
Too long / didn't read
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28)
Of course, it would wear out your lips before you got half way…
By giving up her license in March 2021, the CPSO does not permit this person to "practice" medicine... individuals may address her according to their wishes.
To the Board:
Your invitation/appeal to church members to bring their concerns to you instead of airing them in public is hollow and does not ring true. When nõukogu members used this approach many months ago you went to great lengths to stonewall us, shut us down and muzzle us. This is the reason Talvi wrote her article. Shame on you!
Your invitation/appeal to church members to bring their concerns to you instead of airing them in public is hollow and does not ring true. When nõukogu members used this approach many months ago you went to great lengths to stonewall us, shut us down and muzzle us. This is the reason Talvi wrote her article. Shame on you!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: To lugeja (07:13)
The language of Maimets’s piece does not reflect an expectation of ever working with those it disparages. That expectation underlies the promise of community as expressed by “arvamus”- “Oleme üksteise vastu viisakad” / “We are polite to one another”, regardless of positions taken on a particular issue.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Open/ not-open column (02:07)
There is no reason anyone should ever want to work with these people again. The present (unelected) SP Council are well known agitators who leverage misinformation and practice character assassination against those it disagrees with. They did so with EH, keskus, and more recently with the previous (elected) SP Council. Dr Maimets called them out on in. Bravo! Newsflash sweethearts, you reap what you sow.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40), Answer (12:45), Ummmm (15:19)
To the person above: posting under multiple names, over and over, does little to help your cause. In fact, by doing so, you make it clear that your anti-community attacks have no actual support. The real silent majority is sick of your toxic obsession with splitting our community. Please, just stop and go away.
The opening if keskus will be a much needed and welcomed chance to heal. It will be wonderful to welcome all these angry people back into our fold. Even those who actively undermine us. We are ready to forgive you all and welcome you back to our community.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40), Answer (12:45), Ummmm (15:19), Disko Stu (07:28)
Who is breaking the rules? Who is dumping tradition? Strong language! Was it not the previous council that lied to us, bent the rules as it suited them, drove the church towards insolvency- and resigned. They now complain instead of working with this council to move forward. Such hypocrites. Sigh.
Muigab is living in reality, unlike you and the rest of your people. The fact is, any ‘successes’ thus far are remnants of the tireless efforts of the previous council. By the way, the vote they put forth did have a majority..just saying. Unlike the present council, they served honorably and did what leaders do, which is make difficult decisions when called upon. One more thing, the last council, was actually ELECTED, unlike the present mob running things. Just saying…..
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40), Answer (12:45)
This same sick person is dishonestly posting under several different names to make it seem like this small anti-church group is more like a mob!
IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40), Answer (12:45)
IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40), Answer (12:45)
Kui jätta kõrvale kiriku müügi teema ja pöörata tähelepanu Talvi Maimetsa kirja stiilile, siis teeb meele tõeliselt kurvaks. Lugupeetud ameti esindaja on kasutanud negatiivset, halvustavat kirjastiili. Lisaks on seal hulgaliset valesid fakte. Kui meile midagi ei meeldi, siis võiks ikkagi jääda viisakaks ja oma arvamust viisakalt väljendada. Kurb on ka see, et Eesti Elu pidas vajalikuks sellist halvustavat kirjutist avaldada. See on meie kogukonna leht. Seda loevad ja tellivad kõik, vaatamata seisukohast, kas kirik müüa või mitte.
Oleme ükteise vastu viisakad.
Oleme ükteise vastu viisakad.
We the congregants of St Peter’s would forgive and welcome back the angry people who would think that selling our church and having it destroyed would somehow help the Keskus. The church and its people should be a place for healing and peace, for seeking the presence of God. Instead of focussing on the Keskus, focus on His commandments: love God, then you can love and forgive your enemy. Maybe then then the community would have the unity it so badly needs- and spill over into the Keskus. A house divided cannot stand.
Hot off the press:-)
Estonians all over the world are a great value for Estonia! 🇪🇪
really??? How??
That's why we were very pleased to welcome the K E S K U S International Estonian Centre team at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, whose goal is to open a new international Estonian center in Canada 🇨🇦.
Isn’t it a charity? Or is it a business?
This is the biggest project/boondoggle of the last half century of foreign Estonians. According to the plan, several clubs connecting Estonians, an Estonian school and kindergarten will move to the emerging building downtown Toronto and the center will begin to introduce Estonian culture, heritage and success stories from several fields throughout North America.
Hmmm.
So we really hope Estonia can cough up the money needed to build this vision if they support it- or it is Facebook only support?:-)
Time will tell.
Estonians all over the world are a great value for Estonia! 🇪🇪
really??? How??
That's why we were very pleased to welcome the K E S K U S International Estonian Centre team at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, whose goal is to open a new international Estonian center in Canada 🇨🇦.
Isn’t it a charity? Or is it a business?
This is the biggest project/boondoggle of the last half century of foreign Estonians. According to the plan, several clubs connecting Estonians, an Estonian school and kindergarten will move to the emerging building downtown Toronto and the center will begin to introduce Estonian culture, heritage and success stories from several fields throughout North America.
Hmmm.
So we really hope Estonia can cough up the money needed to build this vision if they support it- or it is Facebook only support?:-)
Time will tell.
Wow..talk about jealousy..lol. A majority of our community is proud to receive the recognition of the Estonian government. Curious that you people are not. Who is the real Estonian here? The fact is your negative, conspiracy laden warped sense of reality is exactly why you people have never been elected to any meaningful position within our community organizations. Nobody takes you seriously. Honestly, do you really feel like theres a reason for you to stick around? Me thinks not.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40), Answer (12:45), Ummmm (15:19), Disko Stu (07:28), We the people (08:29)
No, not jealous. Saddened and disgusted by the arrogance of “you people” who think they speak for the majority. Imagine assuming that we should all be under the Keskus umbrella! Smug, condescending, self-righteous and entitled would be the correct definition of “you people”. Not proud to be an Estonian!
“Not proud to be Estonian “…your words. Thank you for proving to everyone why you do not belong here anymore. Youre welcome for the lesson.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Muigab (12:20), Are you sure? (12:28), TL/DR (12:40), Answer (12:45), Ummmm (15:19), Disko Stu (07:28), We the people (08:29), Proud (17:45)
My point exactly- you are so entitled! The only one to tell me where I belong is me! There is just no dialogue with you people. And that’s what is so wrong with our Estonian society. One can only hope that our kids are better!