Laas Leivat: Let’s take a pause from finding someone to blame
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Community member12 May 2023 17:59
The friends are the root of this problem. They resorted to this practice when the dmocratic processes, instituted by their parents/grandparents some 60 years ago did not bend to satisfy individual egos. This is an exceedinly small group, whose voice is amplified by the anonymous attacks you describe. They can end the division by admitting their folly, and asking for forgiveness. I for one would love to welcome them in from the cold.
:13 May 2023 06:42
See on täpselt selline lahmiv ja idiootlik kommentaar mulle vastu Laas kirjutab. Mõned tõesti ei näe palki oma silmas.
Democratic process?14 May 2023 15:28
The democratic process ruled in favor of conducting the Due Diligence of the "Madison Project".

That has been an epic failure by those who were resonsible for it.

Given the failure of due diligence with costing out the build- can their modeling of operational revenues/costs be trusted...if they even did any modeling?

The Keskus zealots wish to frame themselves as the "silent majority" and mock any reasonable skepticism or criticism of the project ie. This intentionallly polarizes the community further... and dismisses any accountability whatsoever of the project's leadership.

It is the Keskus due diligence team who should be apologizing. They are very fortunate that the community has bailed them out massively.

The convoluted new organizational structure has allowed those responsible to maintain their roles. There is no obvious avenue for recourse. When was the latest election for any Keskus leaders?

Oh, But thanks for bringing up "the democratic process".
Friend of KESKUS14 May 2023 17:32
I for one am eternally grateful to the keskus leadership. They have endured ceaseless assaults on their personal and professional characters. Even their relatives and children have found themselves in the ‘friends’ crosshairs for harassment. The opponents of this project know no boundaries. The KESKUS leaders have kept their nerve and are proceeding successfully with the largest undertaking in the history of the Estonian diaspora. When this history is written, they will without question finally be shown the respect they deserve and given the credit they are owed. Jõudu tööle!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Community member (17:59), Toronto Liberal (12:36)
to friend of15 May 2023 09:02
'am eternally grateful to the keskus leadership'
Hmmmm - your eternally may be quite a bit shorter than you think, if your keskus 'leaders' manage to eliminate Gods House, St. Peter's Church. Your best bet for any sort of 'eternally' probably would be if you help keep St.Peter's. Good luck!
M.P. Vancouverist.12 May 2023 23:56
Tänan Laas hea Kommentaari eest loodame et paljud kes on negatiivsed jättavad
meie mälud rahule.
.13 May 2023 09:21
Raul Rebane kirjutab Postimehes: "Küüditamine on mälu, mitte minevik"
Kuigi 1941. aasta 14. juuni küüditamisest saab varsti mööda 79 aastat ning 1949. aasta 25. märtsi Siberisse viimisest sai 71 aastat, on paljudes peredes küüditamise alateadvuslik hirm täiesti olemas, teatakse oma Siberisse saadetud esivanemaid ja neid päevi tähistatakse. Aga kas peab, jätame selle mineviku ja läheme eluga edasi, arvavad paljud. Teeme mõttemängu ja tarvitame sõna minevik asemel sõna mälu. Siis olukord muutub. Kuidas saab edasi minna ilma mäluta inimene?"
ago5513 May 2023 11:43
"...teatakse oma Siberisse saadetud esivanemaid ja neid päevi tähistatakse. Aga kas peab, jätame selle mineviku ja läheme eluga edasi, arvavad paljud. ..."
Jah, teatakse ja mäletatakse.
Aga need, kellede vanemad/sugulased osalesid nendes küüditamistes, mäletavad samuti. Teavad ja mäletavad imehästi, kust ja kuidas tulid nende "boonused", milliste "teenete eest" tulid elamispinnad võõrasse korterisse, hiljem ka autoostu load.
Omades ka ise ühiskonnas positsiooni just selles mõttes järjepidevalt, ei ole nad sugugi huvitatud, et need räpased mineviku lood ilmsiks tulevad. Ja just sellega nad õigustavadki neid sündmusi, just sellega tekitataksegi hirm nendes, kellede sugulased said kannatada. See ongi kurjuse järjepidevus, mida saab katkestada igasuguste bareljeefide/sammaste eemaldamisega. Kui Narvas jm. kõrvaldatakse vene nimedega otseste kurjategijate tänavasilte, miks peaksid nende eestlastest kaasosalised õigemad olema? Ei Juhan S. ega keegi neist ole avalikult kahetsenud ega vabandanud, kuigi võimalusi oli arvukalt.
Ja nende "mineviku jätjate" kohta kehtib Rootsi vanasõna: "Äraandja jääb alati reeturiks!"
Proovige "unustada" Holokaust, ja teie vastu algatakse kriminaalmenetlus.
ago5513 May 2023 11:55
On ju teada, et ettevõtja Puhk´i korterisse Narva maanteel asus elama "tuntud naisrevolutsionäär" O.L. samanimelise ENSV ja EV aegne mõjuisiku M.L. ema. Ja see naisterahvas patseeris Tallinnas ringi kasukaga, mida inimesed mäletasid varem kandnud olevat proua Puhk.
Ning Raekoja platsil patseerisid ringi "juhtivad revolutsionäärid", kellede pintsaku selja taga abaluu kohal oli niidiga traageldatud verine sisselõige. Ka nende "revolutsionääride" järeltulijad said mõjuka koha tollases ühiskonnas, minnes samal kohal edasi ka EV-s. Eks nad on leidnud suuvoodrid, kes nüüd nende eest häälitsevad, ilmselt mitte "tasuta".
Väljaspool EV-d ei tohiks ju raske olla soetada Mart Aroldi raamatuid.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: ago55 (11:43)
ago5513 May 2023 23:56
Veel üks ilmus välja. ERR 14.05.2023, lõiguke K.B. artiklist:
"... Me oleme ENSV inimeste ees võlgu, et me ei mõistaks neid silmakirjalikult hukka kui "kollaborante" ja seega lõppkokkuvõttes kui oma rahva reetureid...."
--pole sõnasi!--
Ehk aitab Ivan Turgenev? /raamatust "Suits. Uudismaa"/
"..no mitte midagi ei saa aru..!..kirjutatud nagu luuaga tahmasele seinale!..."
Confused in Estonia13 May 2023 21:06
What is going on there in Toronto that those wanting to save the church are being made into the evil ones? Don't you have a minister and a council who understand the incredible need for places of worship? There is a war in Ukraine. Estonia may be in a situation where some need to escape
the country. Inflation is so high here that we may soon need care packages in Estonia.
One would think that the community would now rally to save the church after the loss of the Estonian House.
The Estonian House may have been too large for the Estonian community in Toronto, but the church is perfect. I have heard that the centre some want to build does not have the space or the conditions for many activities that were previously at the Estonian House. Looking at your situation from a distance I cannot understand why you are not trying to save the church. It does not appear that any real attempts have been made to save it.
Whereas there are much better and more interesting ministers in Estonia than the one you have chosen. Why are so many people against keeping the church? I have had so many people ask me whether the Estonian community in Toronto is going bankrupt from building a new centre.
I must admit that I am relieved that I now live in Estonia. As much as I understand our Estonian community in Toronto wants to replace our cultural heritage with a new building which is not even large enough for everyone in the community and for all existing activities and events. Here in Europe cultural heritage and history have far greater value than it seems to have in seems to have in the Estonian community in Toronto. After all, St. Peter's church is our last real connection to our unique cultural heritage and history.
I have also heard that the people building the new centre are desperate for cash and one reason they wanted to be rid of the Estonian House and now the church is that they want all money and donations to go for building the new centre. It apparently has nothing to do with the practical needs of the community or even what Estonia needs.
Could someone please comment on this?
Whereas correct me if I am wrong but most of the negative and aggressive comments are from people who want the church to be sold and who do not agree with saving the church.
There seems to be manipulation of those who want to save the church whose primary concern is to preserve the unique cultural Estonian heritage in Toronto which has made Estonians in Toronto stand out in a positive way here in Estonia.
rkomendant@studiok.ca14 May 2023 09:44
Happy Mother's Day. Thank you Laas and Welcome to Toronto- you are not Confused over in Estonia. You find our Community at low ebb emotionally, intellectually, spiritually. All the thoughts and observations you offer us ring true. I don't know if we can sing our way through this time. We are hoping Estonian reason prevails and the support continues for this beautiful Church, a Memorial, remains strong and the Architecture continues to grace the neighbourhood.
Ott14 May 2023 12:18
Laas on natuke rongilt maha jàanud.
Info muutub kiiresti. Laasilw tervist ja mingus proposal peale ùle.
Toronto Liberal14 May 2023 12:36
To Rita and the commentator from Estonia. Neither of you are part of this community here but rather making suppositions from afar. Hence you a speaking about things you know nothing about. My advice is for the both of you to mind your own beeswax.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Community member (17:59)
rkomendant@studiok.ca14 May 2023 16:58
to both clowns . . . you are "not the boss over me" :o)
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: rkomendant@studiok.ca (09:44)
to: Ott14 May 2023 15:30
I thought I was the only one who thought this!
Average Joe15 May 2023 11:20
Yes, the infighting among the “friends” and the Estonian Center/Ellen Valter lickspittles has alienated a large portion of the community. What’s moat disappointing is that neither side seems the least bit interested in the health of our actual community.
Shame.
Markus Alliksaar15 May 2023 13:31
With one exception so far (other than me) all of the commenters to this article anonymous.

What did Laas Leivat say?

"Cowards hide behind anonymity when belittling opponents’ intelligence or laughing off their motives."
to Margus the browner16 May 2023 16:49
Cowards like to be anonymous, but wanting to be anonymous doesn't necessarily indicate cowardice.

You shared your name, good for you, give yourself a gold star. Just remember that as the saying goes - enesekiitus läheb haisema.
Thank God20 May 2023 13:27
Markus is here to save the day again. But first as always he has to remind folks how much better he is than the rest of us. I guess some things don’t change.
A community volunteer16 May 2023 21:45
True leadership unites people...not divides them.
True leadership does not find faults...but finds remedies.
True leadership does not sow hate... but cultivates love.
La Dame Blanche16 May 2023 23:07
“enesekiitus läheb haisema” Oh, so we are going to reach into the trove of Eesti Vanasõnad are we? Well I’m up for that, how about: “Omad vitsad peksavad”
As for the Community Volunteer (thank you for your service)Nice try. Read much? Anyone who ever tried to change the course of Humankind . . . Martin Luther, Ghandi, Che Guevara, JESUS, Jack Kennedy, Sitting Bull, Red Cloud (don't get me started)- to name a few, got shot! Not much opportunity for leadership when the WhoWheres are guarding their treasure like Smaug.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: rkomendant@studiok.ca (09:44), rkomendant@studiok.ca (16:58)
ago5517 May 2023 01:08
"...how about: “Omad%@!#$&pekksavad”..."
Hästi peksavad, kusjuures.
Hando Runneli poolt koostatud raamatust on lugeda, et need "vitsad peksid" juba aastail 1890- 1906 Kaukaasiasse-venemaale välja rännanud eestlasi, ainult eestlastest koosnevates asundustes.
Nüüd siis oleks nagu lugeda, et jälle needsamad "vitsad" on hakanud "peksma" ka olude sunnil 1944 lahkunute lapsi-lapselapsi.
Eestist endast ei räägiksi, siin käivad "peksutalgud" kõige kõrgemal tasemel.
Kas eestlastel on juba sündides vitsakimp kätte antud?
"...ja vanemate patud nuheldakse laste kaela kolmandast-neljandast põlvest saadik!..."
Ajalugu uurides, ega need "vitsamehed" üle kolme-nelja põlve kestnud ei olegi.
Tark mõtleb ennem, rumal ....17 May 2023 13:03
“Omad vitsad peksavad”
Too bad if this happens too late, after the monetization of all Toronto Estonian community assets.
Of course, with minimal revenue generating potential, keskus wil also go as a fire sale to _ ?
lugeja17 May 2023 15:58
Üheksa korda mõõda, uks kord lõika.

Aga miks siis nõndaviisi? Sellepärast et:

Suur tükk ajab suu lõhki. Vot nii.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: to Margus the browner (16:49)
W.Johanson17 May 2023 10:30
Once I conducted a seminar in a large, protestant church. I hadn't planned to, but I needed to reference something in the Bible -- which I didn't bring along with me. The seminar participants obliged me to search for a copy of the Bible. They found none in the entire church!
I remembered this unfortunate and embarrassing situation when recalling the past discussions on the demise of St. Peter's. In what direction should this debate go?
To state the obvious, St. Peter's is a church. A "church", according to the CRA, is an institution that 'advances religion.' One would further state that, in the case of St. Peter's, the purpose is to advance belief in Christ as stated in its chief symbols, the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds. Furthermore, the means of advancing this particular religion in the context of St. Peter's is informed by the Estonian culture in exile.
Where is Christ's place in this kerfuffle? I recall one mention of Him in one of the commentaries. Then, I googled the words "Christ" and "Kristus" in sites eesti.ca and eestielu.ca (4 searches). There was only one result -- a pdf -- which referenced a display by "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" in Canada that took place in VEMU. (That should not be a surprise given the 100-16% of the population that is proud of its national atheism!)
Mention of Christ is abscent from this commentariate. There is no reflection on soteriology or teleology by the participants on us as individuals or the community.
Many have strongly held opinions about Christ and His church. Most are uninformed. Perhaps the community needs to take time to come to know Christ, soteriology, and teleology -- our final destination -- by reading and prayer. St. Augustine's "Confessions" and "City of God" would be profitable for our upcoming summer reading list.
In other words, Christ, of necessity, must have pride of place in this current dialog. The direction of what to do with St. Peter's will become clearer.
A church without Christ is like a protestant church without a Bible!
If we talk about Christ,19 May 2023 14:02
then my first question is why would Christ want English speakers in Toronto to be segregated by the ethnicity of their ancestors? How about Galatians 3:28, There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Northern Esto19 May 2023 19:41
How are the English being segregated? The English language churches have declined more that any of the others. It is the "ethnic" churches that are keeping the Christian religion alive here. Besides, the English are just one of many ethnic groups in Canada. We are all guests on Indigenous land.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Northern Esto (19:35)
Alright already19 May 2023 17:12
The “friends” caused this problem. The “friends” can end this problem in one of two ways. They can accept the fact they were wrong. Most if not all would forgive this emotional lapse in judgement. I know I would. Happily. Without hesitation. Or two, they can go away. For good. Never to be heard from again. I mean GONE. I hate to say it but these are really the only options to end the division in our community. The majority of us will move on regardless. We are united in purpose. There are more of us. We have been chosen to lead. We are. We will. Nothing will change that. To the vocal, slanderous minority..it’s time to make your choice.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Community member (17:59), Toronto Liberal (12:36), Friend of KESKUS (17:32)
To alright19 May 2023 17:14
Well said. Plain and simple. In other words: Ilus.
Northern Esto19 May 2023 19:35
The KESKUS Cult has not only created the division in our community but their continued fanaticism will probably result in destroying our community from within. It is time to abandon this impractical project and pick up the pieces. The staggering sums of money that they are wasting could have done so much for our community. So sad!
To northern esto19 May 2023 19:48
Your comments are as useless as they are incorrect. Please follow the advice above .
gentle reminder20 May 2023 08:07
We are not immortals.
...21 May 2023 15:47
So where does the Latvian congregation from St. Andrew's now worship?

At St. John's Latvian church in the Lawrence Ave WEST & Avenue Road area... so why couldn't the Estonian St. Andrew's congregation hold services at St. Peter's?

Too many chef's in the kitchen, or too much bad blood STILL in the community?

To paraphrase Rodney King..." why can't we just get along?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: to: Ott (15:30)
Indeed22 May 2023 20:29
St Andrews was asked several times - they are not interested in cooperating?
inimkonnale21 May 2023 19:13
Jeremija 9:Õige kiitlemine
22 Nõnda ütleb Issand:
Ärgu kiidelgu tark oma tarkusest,
ärgu kiidelgu vägev oma vägevusest,
ärgu kiidelgu rikas oma rikkusest,
23 vaid kes kiitleb, kiidelgu sellest,
et ta on arukas ja tunneb mind,
et mina olen Issand, kes teeb head,
õigust ja õiglust maal.
Sest seesugused asjad on mu meele järgi,
ütleb Issand.
to: Indeed22 May 2023 22:20
"St Andrews was asked several times - they are not interested in cooperating?"

Exactly my point!

WTF???!!! Why not?
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: to: Ott (15:30), ... (15:47)
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