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VanemadUuemad
On one hand, it's nice to see the existence of the friends finally acknowledged in an article promoting the sale of Peetri Kirik as up until now, these propaganda pieces have pretended that these people don't even exist.
"Kahjuks selgus, et neil unistus oli, aga äriplaan tegelikult puudus."
This claim that a business plan does not exist is a lie, plain and simple. A business plan exists, here is a link.
https://www.friends-of-st-pete...
If you're going to write a propaganda piece to drum up support for selling the church and are unable to make your case without telling lies, than I can not support your position and I don't see how anyone else can either. If this business plan is flawed and you can explain why, that's one thing. But this lie that a plan doesn't even exist is shameful, and does a disservice to our community. I believe that our community deserves more and I believe we deserve honesty and transparency. Is that asking for too much?
"Kahjuks selgus, et neil unistus oli, aga äriplaan tegelikult puudus."
This claim that a business plan does not exist is a lie, plain and simple. A business plan exists, here is a link.
https://www.friends-of-st-pete...
If you're going to write a propaganda piece to drum up support for selling the church and are unable to make your case without telling lies, than I can not support your position and I don't see how anyone else can either. If this business plan is flawed and you can explain why, that's one thing. But this lie that a plan doesn't even exist is shameful, and does a disservice to our community. I believe that our community deserves more and I believe we deserve honesty and transparency. Is that asking for too much?
Sorry - the “Friends” have not presented a business plan, neither on their website nor at the November Congregational meeting. Google “how to write a business plan” and you’ll find that a serious business plan must include market surveys and strategies to manage downside risk, should their plan fail. None of this was done.
From the link to the business plan:
"This Draft Proposed Business Plan takes into account your responses to a recent survey that we distributed. It is not meant to be a final draft, nor a formal proposal, but rather a document with which to begin collaboration with the current church Executive."
In addition to that disclaimer, there are also some interesting ideas. Does anyone have any thoughts on those ideas? Some of the ideas seem to me have merit so I'm surprised that these were dismissed as being nothing more than "unistused".
"This Draft Proposed Business Plan takes into account your responses to a recent survey that we distributed. It is not meant to be a final draft, nor a formal proposal, but rather a document with which to begin collaboration with the current church Executive."
In addition to that disclaimer, there are also some interesting ideas. Does anyone have any thoughts on those ideas? Some of the ideas seem to me have merit so I'm surprised that these were dismissed as being nothing more than "unistused".
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: lugeja (06:10)
Busted!!! Now you admit it was not a business plan and yet you falsely accuse the article of lying.
This is the problem with you Frenzies.
You want to destroy the kogudus and the asset that it has painstakingly built over 70 years and you'll not stop an anything to achieve your goal!!!
Just imagine when the church goes under and the asset is lost. The community will have lost an asset that could've adequately funded not only the future of the congregation, but also all the other worthwhile institutions like Jõekääru, Sededrioru, Sihtkapital charities, skaudid, gaidid, Eesti kool, rahvatants... the list is endless as to the potential for what this asset can support in our community!!!
This is the problem with you Frenzies.
You want to destroy the kogudus and the asset that it has painstakingly built over 70 years and you'll not stop an anything to achieve your goal!!!
Just imagine when the church goes under and the asset is lost. The community will have lost an asset that could've adequately funded not only the future of the congregation, but also all the other worthwhile institutions like Jõekääru, Sededrioru, Sihtkapital charities, skaudid, gaidid, Eesti kool, rahvatants... the list is endless as to the potential for what this asset can support in our community!!!
No need to be hysterical and I don't want to destroy anything.
I'd be interested in hearing what the issue is with the ideas presented by the friends. A part-time ministry instead of a full time pastor seems like a reasonable idea, so does renting out parking spaces and if those two items alone might be almost enough to cover the operating shortfall, isn't it worth considering?
It seems to me that the ideas presented are what's important, not so much how they're formatted/presented and whether or not they meet the criteria for having the "Business Plan" label slapped on it.
Maybe a better label for that web page would have been not "Business Plan", but rather "Business Plan (work in progress)" since it was meant to be a starting point for discussion, and hopefully collaboration. But in any case, I would still say that the ideas are what's really important - Sisu, mitte vorm as the saying goes.
If you'd like to comment on the ideas, I welcome your input. If you want to keep yelling "that's not a business plan", please spare me. I'm not interested in winning an argument, I'm interested in gathering information and trying to determine if it's possible to save the church or not.
Cheers.
I'd be interested in hearing what the issue is with the ideas presented by the friends. A part-time ministry instead of a full time pastor seems like a reasonable idea, so does renting out parking spaces and if those two items alone might be almost enough to cover the operating shortfall, isn't it worth considering?
It seems to me that the ideas presented are what's important, not so much how they're formatted/presented and whether or not they meet the criteria for having the "Business Plan" label slapped on it.
Maybe a better label for that web page would have been not "Business Plan", but rather "Business Plan (work in progress)" since it was meant to be a starting point for discussion, and hopefully collaboration. But in any case, I would still say that the ideas are what's really important - Sisu, mitte vorm as the saying goes.
If you'd like to comment on the ideas, I welcome your input. If you want to keep yelling "that's not a business plan", please spare me. I'm not interested in winning an argument, I'm interested in gathering information and trying to determine if it's possible to save the church or not.
Cheers.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: lugeja (06:10), lugeja (11:29)
No hysterics here! Just facts. Just suggesting "part time ministry" without backing it up with how that would work, if there are any part time ministers available, showing how that would save money and how much is not constructive... only disruptive. The question of a part time minister has been investigated and put to bed long ago.
Renting out parking spaces... for profit?... at what cost? what's the demand in the area for parking spaces like ours? what are the costs associated with maintaining and operating the parking spaces? how does that affect our charitable status tax wise?
Will those two items alone offset our $15,000/month deficit once SallyAnn leaves? By how much?
You're simply not going to save the church if you don't have a constructive thorough business plan with researched numbers and detailing upside and downside scenarios to start with. Someone posted all the details above as to what is required. Without that, it's all a pipe dream.
It's not shouting! It's a fact!
Prove me wrong!
Renting out parking spaces... for profit?... at what cost? what's the demand in the area for parking spaces like ours? what are the costs associated with maintaining and operating the parking spaces? how does that affect our charitable status tax wise?
Will those two items alone offset our $15,000/month deficit once SallyAnn leaves? By how much?
You're simply not going to save the church if you don't have a constructive thorough business plan with researched numbers and detailing upside and downside scenarios to start with. Someone posted all the details above as to what is required. Without that, it's all a pipe dream.
It's not shouting! It's a fact!
Prove me wrong!
You say that:
"You want to destroy the kogudus and the asset that it has painstakingly built over 70 years and you'll not stop an anything to achieve your goal!!!"
This is hysterics. The three !!! at the end are a clue that you're letting emotions cloud your judgement and I have no desire to destroy anything.
You also say:
"Just imagine when the church goes under and the asset is lost. ´
The community will have lost an asset ..."
Again, hysterics. No harm in trying to save the church and should that eventually prove not to be possible, then the church will simply be sold at a later date and Toronto real estate prices being what they are, it's possible that the delay in selling will even result in a higher selling price. There is no realistic scenario under which "the asset is lost".
Hysterics.
"You want to destroy the kogudus and the asset that it has painstakingly built over 70 years and you'll not stop an anything to achieve your goal!!!"
This is hysterics. The three !!! at the end are a clue that you're letting emotions cloud your judgement and I have no desire to destroy anything.
You also say:
"Just imagine when the church goes under and the asset is lost. ´
The community will have lost an asset ..."
Again, hysterics. No harm in trying to save the church and should that eventually prove not to be possible, then the church will simply be sold at a later date and Toronto real estate prices being what they are, it's possible that the delay in selling will even result in a higher selling price. There is no realistic scenario under which "the asset is lost".
Hysterics.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: lugeja (06:10), lugeja (11:29), lugeja to atfosp (15:36)
Actually, the desperate move to designate St. Peter's as a heritage does raise the risk of actual bankruptcy for the kogudus.
Yes, currently the real risk of "insolvency" (running out of cash due to operating losses and required repairs/ maintenance) is being mislabeled as "imminent bankruptcy".
However, "gaining" heritage status would vapourize the asset's re-sale value in the future. This combined with running out of cash would pulverize the kogudus.
I would be more supportive of the Friends' wishes to stall the sale if they weren't selfishly pushing the heritage status end-around. (Who cares about the wishes of the 2000 random petition signors if they contribute nothing tangible).
Yes, currently the real risk of "insolvency" (running out of cash due to operating losses and required repairs/ maintenance) is being mislabeled as "imminent bankruptcy".
However, "gaining" heritage status would vapourize the asset's re-sale value in the future. This combined with running out of cash would pulverize the kogudus.
I would be more supportive of the Friends' wishes to stall the sale if they weren't selfishly pushing the heritage status end-around. (Who cares about the wishes of the 2000 random petition signors if they contribute nothing tangible).
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Credibility ? (07:22)
"lugeja to atfosp"
When you falsely accuse people of lying, of course there's going to be an emotional response.
Then when you get busted, you don't apologize.
Then when you are challenged to prove me wrong, you ignore it because you can't.
"I'd be interested in hearing what the issue is with the ideas presented by the friends."
No you're obviously not!!!
When you falsely accuse people of lying, of course there's going to be an emotional response.
Then when you get busted, you don't apologize.
Then when you are challenged to prove me wrong, you ignore it because you can't.
"I'd be interested in hearing what the issue is with the ideas presented by the friends."
No you're obviously not!!!
"lugeja" should clean their glasses!
Frenzies came to the November meeting to present their "business plan" but, according to business people who listened to the presentation, it turned out to be not a business plan but merely a list of hopes and dreams.
Furthermore, their website "business plan" is the same pile of hopes and dreams.
"lugeja" is advised to learn what constitutes a proper business plan. The web is full of suggestions.
Why not ask ChatGPT to help prepare a proper plan that can be worked with?
Frenzies came to the November meeting to present their "business plan" but, according to business people who listened to the presentation, it turned out to be not a business plan but merely a list of hopes and dreams.
Furthermore, their website "business plan" is the same pile of hopes and dreams.
"lugeja" is advised to learn what constitutes a proper business plan. The web is full of suggestions.
Why not ask ChatGPT to help prepare a proper plan that can be worked with?
"Oleme mitu korda pöördunud Vana-Andrese koguduse juhatuse poole ettepanekuga arutada koguduste ühinemise võimalust. Juba siis, kui nad müüsid oma kiriku, pakkusime neile võimalust meile üürnikuks tulla. Nende vastus on iga kord olnud eitav. Vaatamata meie koguduse liitumisele ELCIC sinodiga (sama sinod, kuhu kuulub Vana- Andrese kogudus), ei soovinud nende juhatus meiega koostööd teha."
Why do you think that is? Maybe they would respond to an invitation from a new juhatus, one that is more welcoming and has a passion to help and work together? Try it!
“Rõhutame, et juhatusel ei ole olnud mingit sidet ega läbirääkimisi Keskusega.”
Interesting though believable.
The Soviet trained St. Peter’s minister was announced in June 2020 as a council member of the Tartu College Estonian Studies Center. [Tartu College was an initial investor in what has become the Keskus project.] Two months later at the end of August 2020, he announced from the pulpit that St. Peter’s is broke and the Church must be sold; and the following month at the congregational meeting,he mocks his congregation by telling them again that the church must be sold and that the congregation of sixty or seventy will fit nicely into the 11 Madison Avenue house, the first property acquired by the Keskus building team. The Council went along supporting that plan spouting ‘imminent bankruptcy’, a false cry, which was also heard again this spring, still a false cry!
The Council members’ role, in the takeover of St. Peter’s by the minister and keskus, has been as puppets suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, as during the last three years they have not attempted anything to help keep the Congregation in its Church.
This Council no longer represent the St. Peter’s congregants, rather they represent the “thieves” who want access to funds created by the sale of the Church.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org...
Interesting though believable.
The Soviet trained St. Peter’s minister was announced in June 2020 as a council member of the Tartu College Estonian Studies Center. [Tartu College was an initial investor in what has become the Keskus project.] Two months later at the end of August 2020, he announced from the pulpit that St. Peter’s is broke and the Church must be sold; and the following month at the congregational meeting,he mocks his congregation by telling them again that the church must be sold and that the congregation of sixty or seventy will fit nicely into the 11 Madison Avenue house, the first property acquired by the Keskus building team. The Council went along supporting that plan spouting ‘imminent bankruptcy’, a false cry, which was also heard again this spring, still a false cry!
The Council members’ role, in the takeover of St. Peter’s by the minister and keskus, has been as puppets suffering from Stockholm Syndrome, as during the last three years they have not attempted anything to help keep the Congregation in its Church.
This Council no longer represent the St. Peter’s congregants, rather they represent the “thieves” who want access to funds created by the sale of the Church.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org...
A proper business plan should include several key elements to provide a comprehensive overview of your business, its goals, strategies, and financial projections. Here are some important things to include:
Executive Summary: A concise overview of the entire business plan, summarizing the key points and capturing the reader's attention.
Company Description: Detailed information about your company, including its mission statement, legal structure, location, history, and any unique advantages or competitive strengths.
Market Analysis: A thorough examination of your target market, industry trends, customer needs, and potential competition. This section should demonstrate your understanding of the market landscape and highlight opportunities for your business.
Products or Services: A description of the products or services your business offers, emphasizing their features, benefits, and how they fulfill customer needs. Include any intellectual property or proprietary rights you hold.
Organization and Management: An overview of your organizational structure, key team members, their roles, and their relevant experience. Highlight any gaps in the team and how you plan to fill them.
Marketing and Sales Strategy: Outline your plans for promoting and selling your products or services. Include details on pricing, distribution channels, advertising, branding, and customer acquisition strategies.
Financial Projections: Present a realistic financial forecast that includes income statements, balance sheets, and cash flow statements for at least the next three to five years. Consider including different scenarios, such as a best-case and worst-case, to demonstrate your financial resilience.
Funding Request (if applicable): If you're seeking funding, clearly state how much capital you need, how you intend to use it, and the potential returns for investors. Include a detailed analysis of your funding requirements, including your own investment and any external financing options.
Implementation Plan: Detail the operational aspects of your business, including production processes, supply chain management, facilities, technology, and any regulatory requirements. Outline the timeline for launching and scaling your business.
Risk Assessment: Identify and analyze the potential risks and challenges that could affect your business. This could include market risks, competition, regulatory changes, financial risks, or operational vulnerabilities. Present mitigation strategies to address these risks.
Appendices: Include any supporting documents or additional information that adds credibility to your plan, such as market research data, product samples, marketing materials, resumes of key team members, and legal documents.
Remember that the specifics of your business plan may vary depending on factors such as industry, target audience (e.g., investors, lenders), and the purpose of the plan (e.g., startup, expansion). Adapt the content to suit your unique business needs while ensuring the plan remains comprehensive and well-structured.
Executive Summary: A concise overview of the entire business plan, summarizing the key points and capturing the reader's attention.
Company Description: Detailed information about your company, including its mission statement, legal structure, location, history, and any unique advantages or competitive strengths.
Market Analysis: A thorough examination of your target market, industry trends, customer needs, and potential competition. This section should demonstrate your understanding of the market landscape and highlight opportunities for your business.
Products or Services: A description of the products or services your business offers, emphasizing their features, benefits, and how they fulfill customer needs. Include any intellectual property or proprietary rights you hold.
Organization and Management: An overview of your organizational structure, key team members, their roles, and their relevant experience. Highlight any gaps in the team and how you plan to fill them.
Marketing and Sales Strategy: Outline your plans for promoting and selling your products or services. Include details on pricing, distribution channels, advertising, branding, and customer acquisition strategies.
Financial Projections: Present a realistic financial forecast that includes income statements, balance sheets, and cash flow statements for at least the next three to five years. Consider including different scenarios, such as a best-case and worst-case, to demonstrate your financial resilience.
Funding Request (if applicable): If you're seeking funding, clearly state how much capital you need, how you intend to use it, and the potential returns for investors. Include a detailed analysis of your funding requirements, including your own investment and any external financing options.
Implementation Plan: Detail the operational aspects of your business, including production processes, supply chain management, facilities, technology, and any regulatory requirements. Outline the timeline for launching and scaling your business.
Risk Assessment: Identify and analyze the potential risks and challenges that could affect your business. This could include market risks, competition, regulatory changes, financial risks, or operational vulnerabilities. Present mitigation strategies to address these risks.
Appendices: Include any supporting documents or additional information that adds credibility to your plan, such as market research data, product samples, marketing materials, resumes of key team members, and legal documents.
Remember that the specifics of your business plan may vary depending on factors such as industry, target audience (e.g., investors, lenders), and the purpose of the plan (e.g., startup, expansion). Adapt the content to suit your unique business needs while ensuring the plan remains comprehensive and well-structured.
There you go!
Try again Frenzies...
"lugeja": who's really lying?
Try again Frenzies...
"lugeja": who's really lying?
The congregation voted in favour of seeking purchasers, a full two years before the “Friends” began advertising their ideas as a “business plan”. Those opposed to selling the church had ample time to propose solutions and to thoroughly research them and create a real business plan. But they did not do this. They have no credibility.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Challenger (09:30)
Anybody else see the irony in bringing up the meeting where votes were fabricated from thin air to achieve quorum in order to push through the sale of the church in a comment accusing others of lacking credibility?
That fraudulent vote was obviously recognized as illegitimate, so it was swept under the rug with no explanation from those responsible.
The re-vote didn't go the way the sellers wanted, so yup - another do-over. SO SOOO CREDIBLE !
That fraudulent vote was obviously recognized as illegitimate, so it was swept under the rug with no explanation from those responsible.
The re-vote didn't go the way the sellers wanted, so yup - another do-over. SO SOOO CREDIBLE !
https://www.heritagetrust.on.c...
Why are heritage buildings important?
“People tend not to have a clear classification of 'heritage' but if you consider cities like Montreal and London, they each have a specific sense of place. Older buildings are an important component of that. Another concern is that you can lose much of your city’s culture if you lose what’s already been built. Older buildings, such as those in downtown Toronto, provide fairly inexpensive rental space allowing for cultural communities to flourish. If you demolish an older building and put up a new one, the tax rate changes so significantly that modest uses get priced out.”
http://spacing.ca/toronto/2011...
Why are heritage buildings important?
“People tend not to have a clear classification of 'heritage' but if you consider cities like Montreal and London, they each have a specific sense of place. Older buildings are an important component of that. Another concern is that you can lose much of your city’s culture if you lose what’s already been built. Older buildings, such as those in downtown Toronto, provide fairly inexpensive rental space allowing for cultural communities to flourish. If you demolish an older building and put up a new one, the tax rate changes so significantly that modest uses get priced out.”
http://spacing.ca/toronto/2011...
…and the responsibility of maintaining a heritage building (including $1.5 million to properly fit the copper roof) is the owner’s (i.e. the congregation).
Thank you, Tiiu Roiser!
Thank you, Tiiu Roiser!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Challenger (09:30), Challenger (12:27)
sorry for the typo “fix”
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Challenger (09:30), Challenger (12:27), Challenger (08:14)
Eesti Maja /Estonian House provided "fairly inexpensive rental space allowing for cultural communities to flourish." How is the community going to make up for the part the Estonians lost? Didn't they get a grant to fix the roof? EMW uses the Cotton Factory in Hamilton and St. Anne's Anglican Church in Toronto, where do they give back?
https://tdotcommunity.ca/proje...
https://tdotcommunity.ca/proje...
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: broader horizons (08:01)
Means exactly that. That you value your culture and history. Obviously those wanting the sale don’t value the building and the community it used to represent. That wonderful generation has passed. Peetri kirik is their legacy. Sold means demolished. Lost. So many non-Estonians value this church- if you made it a community church, in English, you would not have to lose it. Begging for grants? That’s what the pastor has been doing - sending letters asking for donations, putting financials in the paper- churches are always asking for money. Why should a grant to fix the roof be so terrible? Maybe we need grant writers, people with a vision- and faith, not in ourselves, but in God.
Nagu laulusõnad:
Oh oh
What's god got to do, got to do with it?
What's god but a superstitious copout?
What's god got to do, got to do with it?
Who needs a church when a church can be sold out?
Oh oh
What's god got to do, got to do with it?
What's god but a superstitious copout?
What's god got to do, got to do with it?
Who needs a church when a church can be sold out?
To “Collective”: so you seem to be proposing that every few months we go cap-in-hand begging for grants (please help us fix the roof, please help us erect a new cross, waterproof the foundation, replace the HVAC, replace the windows).
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Challenger (09:30), Challenger (12:27), Challenger (08:14), Challenger (08:15)
Who's "we" that wants millions at one go (with details to follow, sound familiar?)
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: broader horizons (08:01), collective issue (08:47)
So, "To C"
So what do you propose?
So what do you propose?
“Cap in hand” describes another group asking for donations and would not say no to a grant. Every newsletter from the church asks for donations. Money is required to run a church- you can get more members, rent out space, reduce salaries and write proposals for grants. The place won’t run on volunteer efforts alone. And the problem is???
Peetri kogudus
The frenz will very soon understand the trap they have set for themselves!!! We'll give them a month...
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