Where are we headed, anyway?
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
Maxim.30 Jul 2004 10:40
When the sustaining power of language as a tool to understand one's roots, culture and history begins to be questioned, then not long after that irrelevancy and lack of perspective set in. Estonia is too small a culture and language group to expect its empowerment via English, as is suggested in the above article. All sorts of methods of logic can be applied to defy this tendency, but as other Estonian communities have shown, the trend continues to be ever downwards. I think there is a slightly better opportunity for Estonian culture to survive in a broader European context (via languages such as Finnish or Hungarian, due to our common ancestry) but the seed of multiculturalism invariably seek different solutions to cultural problems. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em....move to Estonia...it's the only solution!
Väike Manituu31 Jul 2004 12:42
sorri, aga selles keeles kirjutamist jätkates pole teie "Estonian community"-l mingit tulevikku.
Ükssarvik01 Aug 2004 10:00
Sorri, aga selles kohmakalises ja kummalises keeles kirjutamist jätkates pole tsivilisatsioonil mingit tulevikku.
Uudishimuline02 Aug 2004 09:37
"... move to Estonia......it's the only solution!"
Thanks for the advice, Maxim, but you forgot to identify the problem -- if there is one -- that such a move will solve.
Troll02 Aug 2004 10:04
The problem to be addressed at Metsaülikool is to find a convincing proof that Canadians with an Estonian heritage are genuinely Estonian without regard to their faulty command of the language.
Maxim02 Aug 2004 14:25
The problem is, do you want to be a Canadian, or do you want to be and Estonian. Those who left Estonia after WW2 had some claim to being both, but with all due respect, this is not the case anymore...You can have a remote interest in things Estonian, but that doesn't necessarily make you one....you need to take certain steps to qualify to be a Estonian....like moving here!
eestlanna02 Aug 2004 23:26
Inimene kes ei oska eesti keelt ei ole eestlane. Seda voib loputult arutada Metsaulikoolides ja foorumites, kuid see fakt voiks juba Kanada eestlaste teadvusesse jouda!
küsija03 Aug 2004 04:08
Huvitav. Tundub, et eestlased mõtlevad oma identiteetsusele ainult keelelisel pinnal. Torontos näiteks juutide ja itaalaste ühiskonnad tegutsevad küllaltki palju inglise keeles, aga nad ei kõhkle, et nad on oma rahvusest.
eestlanna03 Aug 2004 05:09
Nii, kui see keel ei ole, siis mis naiteks! Koorilaulu ja rahvatantsu mitte mainida!
kah eestlane03 Aug 2004 08:04
Keel ei ole sugugi mitte eestlaseks olemise ainuke ja määrav faktor. Näiteks Eesti diplomaadile sündinud laps välismaal, kes käib kohalikus koolis ja sellega seoses jääb ta eesti keel konarlikuks. Kas siis selline laps tôesti polegi eestlane?

Vôi kas Hiinas sündinud ja üleskasvanud, kes ôpib eesti keele selgeks, on eestlane?

See on minu meelest keeruline küsimus ja parema kriteeriumi puudumisel pakuksin välja, et eestlaseks vôivad ennast kutsuda kôik, kes on Eesti kodanikud, sôltumata nende keeleoskusest, nahavärvist vôi jalanumbrist.

Oleks väga huvitav kuulda, mis on sinu arvates see "eestlaseks olemise test". Mis on need kriteeriumid, mille pôhjal sa seda määrad?
Anonymous03 Aug 2004 08:09
...ainult see, et see kes peab ennast eestlaseks, on eestlane.
Anonymous03 Aug 2004 09:27
Kas siis multimiljonär USAs sündinud Steve Jürvetson, kes peab ennast eestlaseks ja toob oma miljonid Eestisse arendama kaks paljutõotavat projekti (Skype ja Geenivaramu) ei ole eestlane, kuna ta ei räägi eesti keelt?
kanada-eestlane04 Aug 2004 18:53
Maxim kirjutab: "The problem is, do you want to be a Canadian, or do you want to be and Estonian."

Mina olen hoopis kolmas variant: kanada-eestlane. Minul on Kanada kogemused ja olen hinges eestlane -- seda ma ei saa muuta ega mu isiksust pooleks saagida.
Peterr05 Aug 2004 04:32
To: kanada-eestlane, olen sinuga 100% nõus! Olen Kanadas sündinud aga kanadalased ei ole mingi rahvus vaid hoopis mitu rahvust kes on kõik Kanada kodanikud. Samal ajal olne eesti päritoluga ja minu emakeel on eesti keel nii et olen mõlemad, kanada-eestlane ka. Ei tea miks mõnde kodu-eestlastel on sellest nii raske aru saada?

Maxim03 Aug 2004 05:38
The case has been fought and won....many times already. We are too small an ethnic group, and the "hardwired products" that make up the essence of our cultural values which we take with us into the future are firmly rooted in language. That doesn't seem to be the case with larger ethnic groups, such as Italians, who seem happy enough with pizza and red wine. but a typical "Estonian restlessness" pervades in our psyche-the need to leave something permanent..it's the flip-side of our fear that we will become extinct at some point in the future. Talk is twaddle...it may be a good pasttime if you just want to touch base with things going down Estonian, but it's not a significant contribution to sustaining the culture. Estonia is the only place where these types of sustaining values are produced. And it's a lot easier to do something about it now that the country is freer than it's possibly ever been in its history.
Rahvuslane03 Aug 2004 06:52
From a sufficient distance, every ethnic group appears to be monolithic. Up close, it's obvious that bold generalizations about them (Estionian restlessness, Italian satisfaction with pizza and wine) are false, meaningless, or silly. About the only generalization that we can safely make about Estonians is that they speak Estonian and those Estonian nationalists and cultural chauvinists who can't speak Estonian are queer birds indeed. They're akin to flying pigs in that they might be hallucinations or magicians tricks, but they're definitely not ugly birds.
Maxim.03 Aug 2004 10:08
Of course they speak the language, but it's what they've done through the language that makes or breaks certain intangible elements that, when grouped together, form the basis of a culture. Put simply, in the past 50 or so years, the tradition of the Estonian communities abroad have only really left their fundamental staying power in the evident material that's survived in print; literature in particular. It's too much to ask of people who live so far away...as in Canada....in spite of their Estonian background, to keep on being Estonian. Whoever has powerful stirrings of being Estonian in heart and mind, has more than likely moved here. Who has not, and nevertheless feels Estonian, can share that passion with others...that's wonderful...but I doubt that in the long run it contributes greatly to the enhancement of Estonian culture, with it biggest movers and shakers living right here on the fault line of events, as it were.
contributor03 Aug 2004 10:41
Nii et "ôige eestlane" kolib Eestisse, kuna ainult Eestis elades lisab ta midagi Eesti kultuuri?

Väga väiklane lähenemine! Eesti eestlased ei peaks mitte kartma ja eemale tôukama väljaspool Eestit elavate inimiste panust. Et Paavo Järvi, Pärt jm. elavad Eestist väljaspool ei tee nende kunsti sugugi Eestile väheväärtuslikumaks. Ja välismaal elaval tavalisel Jaanil on samaväärne ôigus pidada ennast eestlaseks nagu Pärdil, nagu on ka Eesti elaval taksojuhil, kes oma igapäevase tööga ei lisa suurt midagi Eesti kultuuri arengusse.

Ma ei saa aru sellest näägutamisest, et te pole eestlased. Kord ei ole eesti keel küllalt aktsendivaba, siis jälle ei ela Eestis, siis pole Eestis sündinud, jne. Eestlased on nii väike rahvas, et nad peaksid kôik, kes tahavad midagi selle rahvaga tegemist teha, vastu vôtma. See ei tähenda, et nad peavad kannatama môningate üksikute isikute ôpetamist ja ülevolevat suhtumist, aga see ei tee neid ôpetajaid sugugi vähem eestlaseks, pigem avaldavad nad oma "eestlaslikke" käitumisjooni.

Parem joo kama ja ära tule keksima oma suure eestlusega!
Maxim.03 Aug 2004 12:39
If you feel so strongly that you have been able to retain your roots and your place in Canada...then for God's sake stay there! I just got fed up with the declining community and figured there's got to be more to this than seeing it all shut down within the next few years. Good luck finding solutions...as you can see, the choices you can make about your role in Estonian affairs still remain fairly limited...
Anonymous03 Aug 2004 15:08
Questions about our individual identity are complex, personal and not always well understood even by ourselves. We should all hesitate, therefore, before we tell others what they are or should be. The above mentioned Arvo Pärt, for example, would probably describe himself as a Christian first and foremost, then as a composer and, finally, as an Estonian. Who is entitled to tell him otherwise?
Tarieu03 Aug 2004 15:24
Dear Maxim. Please reveal the mystery of what it is that you are doing over there that is so crucial to yourself and to the Estonians?
Maxim04 Aug 2004 09:26
If mankind is just a little lower than the angels, then Estonians are a little above that....in terms of their Canadian counterparts...both geographically and otherwise....there! Now that's really bitchy, isn't it.....but not much more than the other bitchiness that's been going down with this subject!!!
Tarieu04 Aug 2004 10:46
Because my most enjoyable vacations have taken place in Estonia, I'm contemplating retirement there. The cosmopolitan liberalism of contemporary Estonia appeals to me. It also makes me wonder how it is that you can be comfortable there as a cultural zealot with an awkward way with English and, probably, a worse way with Estonian.
Your strident messages to Eesti Elu don't appear to have their intended impact and, therefore, It may be wise to redirect your energy to more fertile pastures. In particular, I'm thinking of the declining population of Estonia which is becoming a worrisome matter. Perhaps you'd be well suited to do some work to reverse that trend.
Maxim.04 Aug 2004 11:27
Väga õige järeldus.....täna olin oma lapsega pargis ja kuulasin kuidas üks eesti päritolust naisterahvas....ilmselt USA-st... rääkis juttu inglise keeles oma hiina päritolust sõbrannaga...vahepeal hõigates puhtas eesti keeles hoiatusi oma lastele...ja ma mõtlesin; oh kui tore....ma ikka täitub tasapisi oma lastega, ja laste laste lastega...ja nemad on need kes kannavad eestlust edasi...tulevikus saavad mõned neist olla pilusilmsed, teised tõmmunahalised, kuid kõik ikka ühel meelel....ja ammendades puhtast vee allikast siitsamast pisikesest ajaloolisest Eestist...ikka siin paigas kus on silmnähtavamalt kergem eesti asja ajada...mina ei ole Arvo Pärt ega Neeme Järvi, aga siiski tunnen et minu panus eestlusele on palju mõjukam siin elades kui kusagil mujal....seda on aeg kinnitanud...soovin kõigile edu!
P. Suurvo~sa03 Aug 2004 17:23
The article is written in English for a very good reason-namely our (the target audience) command of Estonian language isn't that great yet the discussions are going to be in Estonian. Should be interesting for some participants to attempt to express complicated and abstract concepts in a language that for most is not one that they were educated in and for many is rusty with a child's vocabulary. Either bite the bullet on the language issue and adapt completely or continue to restrict the articles and attendance to Estonian only with all this means to attendance.
The most important thing to come out of the census is the number of the offspring of mixed marriages. I suspect that the age of those of "single Estonian extraction" persons is significantly higher with all this entails for the future.
I'm reminded of what Henry Kissinger said about the noisy and nasty confrontations and arguments that university professors have which in the end don't matter much to the real world.
Good luck to your upcoming discussions in the Estonian language. I may even try to wade through the article that one of the "recently arrived" newspaper reporters reporters who proably has never been to Kotkajarv is sure to wirte.
küsija04 Aug 2004 08:59
Huvitav, et Eestis elav Maxim otsustas kirjutada oma kommentaare inglise keeles ja näiteks välismaal elav ‘contributor’ kirjutas oma kommentaari eesti keeles. Ehk on lootust, et eestlane olla välismaal ei ole nii lootusetu, kui Maxim seda arvab? Igal juhul, me peaksime julgustama ja toetama neid, kes soovivad välismaal eestlust nautida ja eestlastena elada, nii kaua kui see on võimalik. Usun, et seda saab veel aastakümneid.

P. Suurvõsale ütleksin, et mul oleks hea meel, kui inimesed püüavad eesti keeles endid väljendada ühiskonna foorumis, olguküll, et nende eesti keel on nõrk. Keelt kasutades õpime keelt juurde. Muide, su viimane punkt Eestist tulnud kirjanikke kohta oli labane, need kes on varem kirjutanud Metsaülikooli kohta on seal ka käinud.
Canadian Esto04 Aug 2004 05:54
The question of Estonian language and identity of individuals of estonian descent who live outside estonia is THE issue for our generation. I would suggest that the majority of those under 40 years of age (and many over that age as well) have only basic estonian language skills and typically little or none. The minority are who we tend to see as active regular members of the estonian community. The question then becomes, what to do. Does a small and shrinking community insist on language knowledge as a prerequisite to membership and participation as the "hard-liners" suggest. Or does it water down the ideal of estonian culture and become "club" or interest group? Are the majority of those of estonian descent who do not speak estonian well and exist at the margins of estonian society even interested enough to increase their participation in estonian events to be worth courting?
Well, in my opinion, one never knows until one tries. Adaptation to changing times is the only way to long term survival as a cultural entity. This does not mean giving up promotion and teaching of the estonian language. But it does acknowlege the need for at least some bi-lingual events and activities to try to at least partially re-integrate those who would otherwise not participate at all. This is already happening to some extent and will hopefully continue. If this means some "watering down" of the ideal. Adapt or slowly fade are the only options. I personally suggest the former.
kah esto04 Aug 2004 08:49
Sa oled minu meelest väga hästi tabanud asja olemuse. Paljud halvasti keelt oskavad (lühidalt vôib neid kutsuda "canestod") ei taha nn. "estode" üritustest osa vôtta, kuna seal on liiga palju neile arusaamatuid kônesid, esinemisi jms. Aga samal ajal ei taha "estod", kes on vaevaks vôtnud keelt ôppida, alla anda "lowest common denominator" sündroomile. Nii ongi tekkinud olukord, kus "canestod" ei taha osaleda "estode" üritustel ja "estod" hakkavad tôrkuma valdavalt inglise keelsetele üritustele.

Kui muuta üritus "canesto" sôbralikuks, siis vist tôepoolest eemaldub see asi eestlusest ja muutub "huviklubiks".

Minu meelest vôiks esimese sammuna teha uuringut "canestode" seas, et milliseid üritusi nad sooviksid ja mil määral on nad huvitatud nende ürituste eestlusega sidumisest. Uuringute pôhjal vôiks juba täpsemaid otsuseid edasi teha.

Ma ei tea kes seda uurigut korraldaks, äkki vôiks kôik eesti organisatsioonid seda toetada ja siis tulemusi omavahel jagada?
Mutt04 Aug 2004 09:36
Oleme seda vaipa juba kaua, kaua peksnud aga ikka tolmune ja vist ei saagi puhtaks!
Saame kokku. Sööme koos sülti, hapukapsaid ja rosoljet ja paar vorstikest ja arutame seda asja nagu Eestlased ikka, väikese märjukesega.
Küll siis saame teine-teisest aru.
eestlanna04 Aug 2004 10:38
Ma leian et Sinu kommentaar on lihtsalt fantastiline! Tubli!
Mutt04 Aug 2004 13:54
Tänan!
Mulle meeldib ikka kas söögilauas ehk saunalaval asju lahti arutada.
Usun Eestlased, kusiganes nad elavad teevad samuti.
Mutt04 Aug 2004 14:00
Näe - silma nägemine on ka kehva võitu, ei taipan'd et eelmise kommentaar oli hoopis kah estole.
Punastan!
agnes04 Aug 2004 19:45
Kes on see Maxim anyway???
Anonymous05 Aug 2004 03:39
Kas meil on vaja teada kes Maxim või keegi teine on, kui ei ole solvamisega tegemist? Anonüümselt kirjutamine julgustab osavõtjaid kirjutama ausamalt oma mõtteid, mida võib-olla ei ole üldsusele alati meeltmööda.
Eestlane Kanadas05 Aug 2004 05:41
Miks on küsimused alati keele taga kinni? Kas on nii raske aru saada et PALJUD meist räägivad, lugevad ja kirjutavad eesti JA inglise keelt puhtalt. Minu inglise keel on ikka selge, kuigi loen, kirjutan ja räägin eesti keelt.
SO.. if I sometimes express myself in English, that does not make me any less of an Estonian, and futhermore, I did not instantly forget how to speak, read or write Estonian. I have a passion and conviction to retain my Estonian language and no amount of english will change that.
keskealine ühiskonna liige05 Aug 2004 09:45
See arutlus mis toimub laupäeval, 14. augustil, MÜs kostab väga huvitav ja VÄGA vajalik.
Isegi kui ei saa ülejäänud ajaks Kotkajärvele minna, peaksime ühiskonnana, nii palju kui võimalik kohale sõitma selleks arutluseks.
Eriti noored!
Anonymous05 Aug 2004 10:27
......aga siin anonüümsuse varjus on parem seda teemat arutada kus võime vabamalt endeid avaldada.
Eestipäritoluga05 Aug 2004 11:01
I must agree with the previous writer because my family, church and profession are more important to me than my heritage. With those priorities, I suspect that I'd be viewed as an odd-ball at MÜ and the extremists -- tulehingelised rahvuslased -- may well call me a traitor right to my face.
Anonymous05 Aug 2004 13:17
No one should have to feel that they are looked down-upon because of their choices regarding their herritage. Rahvuslased should show respect towards Estonians with different views. However, I hope you don't take healthy debate as an attack on your life choices. I suspect rahvuslased are also trying to figure out things for themselves.
keskealine ühiskonna liige05 Aug 2004 14:24
Iga üks peab ise otsustama mis on temale tähtis.
Selles foorumis (mis toimub MÜs) on aga tähtis arutelu.
Millist Eesti ühiskonda me soovime siin Kanadas / Põhja Ameerikas?
Millised organisatsioonid on vajalikud ja hoiavad oma tähtsust veel tulevikus?
Kas on vaja Eesti skaute / gaide kui omas külas on skautüksus / gaidüksus? Kas oleme skaudid / gaidid või Eesti Skaudid / Gaidid?
Kas on vaja Eesti kirikuid kui meie külas on kirik?
Kas oleme Kristlased või kas Eestlusel on ka koht meie kirikus et peame oma kirikuid säilitama?
Kas on tähtsust Maakondlikel organisatsioonidel, kui noorematel on vana-vanemad sündinud erinevates maakondades?
Mida me vajame et meid alalhoida?
Mida ühiskond vajab, et me kestaksime ja et meie ühiskond pakuks oma liikmetele just seda mis hoiab meid koos ja tekitab huvi nende seas kes on eemale jäänud?
Ma pole kunagi MÜs käinud ja puhkuse päevad on juba kasutatud, aga leian et oleks tähtis selleks arutluseks Kotkajärvele sõita.
ma õssitaja ei ole, aga...05 Aug 2004 15:20
...nagu on näha MÜ veebil (www.eesti.ca/mu), see välis-eestluse tuleviku paneel toimub laupäeva hommikul kell 11.30. Kui reede õhtul kohal olla...
Eestlane Kanadas05 Aug 2004 14:05
Our heritage is not by choice... we are born with it. To deny a child their heritage is to deny them something that is rightfully theirs. I believe it is every parents duty to teach their children the languages that they speak, the customs of their childhoods and the history of their ancestors. They are failures if they don't. No excuses.
Anonymous05 Aug 2004 15:25
I would try using honey...vinegar doesn't work well, when attracting bees.
Nostalgic07 Aug 2004 08:55
Before passing our heritage on to our children, we must acquire it ourselves and that presupposes a serious and sustained effort to learn the language. Most of us are not quite up to it and, as a result, we have the curious sight of so many proud Estonians with a grasp of the language that is inadequate for broad-ranging communication with their children. There are enough striking exceptions to this generalization to prove that, with committment, our heritage can be acquired and passed on. Most of us, however, misdirect our energy to rationalizing the current state of affairs. Some of this can be found in the foregoing commentary where language as the core of heritage is denied its importance.
Eestipäritoluga07 Aug 2004 17:54
Thanks for your instructions. Now, I know that we're born with our heritage but it shouldn't be denied to us because it's rightfully ours. Also, parents should teach their children the languages that they speak and that they are failures if they don't. No excuses.

Meie kodus on neli keelt aga sellegipärast eelisõiguseks on lapsi kasvatada ristiusuõpetusega. Ma paluks andeks, oleks see kättesaadav. Ja juhuslikult möödaminnes võiks ka mainida et eestipäritollu kuulub ka ristiusk.
Naani09 Aug 2004 18:21
Aga kõigepealt Taara ja maausk.
Eestipäritoluga10 Aug 2004 19:01
Aitäh kutse eest aga ma teie rebastepeole ei tule.
Anonymous17 Aug 2004 11:58
....kõigepealt usuta, kui me olime veel ahvileivapuu ladvas.
Anonymous05 Aug 2004 15:51
Eesti Elu should send Peeter Bush to report on the discussions at MÜ.
Anonymous16 Aug 2004 20:21
Mis rebastepidu????
Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.