"Let's think about all this! What's the panic?"
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
1  2  >
Ingrid Tanner11 Feb 2018 19:33
Please put your name in the candidate pile at the next election. YOU seem to have grasped what the "Friends of the Estonian House" are looking for. Keep the land... fix the building or create new... where we are!
If the group of Org's who want the Madison Project to continue after your elegant overview of what is wrong and good... then let them do their fundraising and leave us the Estonian House to the USERS... please note... that the the Estonian House is full at times... and the Madison site could never hold that many guests. Let them fund raise and build the glass structure in the shade and rumble of the subway.
Let us who use the Estonian House to have a say ... and get it fixed up and enjoy the views and the spaces.
Minu arvamus11 Feb 2018 20:14
This perfectly sums up the situation. I agree with every single point.

Please take charge of the project! If only we could dump the current EM juhatus and get a fresh start with a new board. One that listens to the community. And maybe a new bank director and Sihtkapital leader as well. But that's hoping for too much.

Help us keep our EM for the Estonians!
lugeja12 Feb 2018 05:37
This just may be the single best piece of writing I have ever read on this site. I can only hope it's not too late to stop this madness.
Ühineme12 Feb 2018 08:17
I will respond to a couple of the points mentioned here, only because this posting frustrates me.

The gravity of the EM situation has been discussed for likely close to 10 years - it is not something that has come out of no where. People who have attended EM shareholder koosolekud and have read any of the many newspaper articles on the topic should be well aware of this.

Safety - the Madison location is located much closer to the subway station than Broadview is and the short walk is along a major street where there are always people around. This is much safer to walk along than Broadview which has much fewer people and requires a longer walk to the subway station.

The shadow patterns have been evaluated and that was part of Kongats’ presentation at the Jan 31 meeting.

It’s pleasant to say we can come up with new alternative ideas, but that opportunity has been there for the last 10 years. The EM board has evaluated many options over the years, not just this single idea.

Yes, it will be sad to leave the EM one day, but the house isn’t what makes us, it is us as a cultural group interacting, teaching our kids, singing, celebrating together. We as a community need to move forward together.

This division is so frustrating and saddening to me. We can be so much stronger together than we are showing ourselves to be right now.

We should be reveling in the excitement of EV100! right now, and instead, energies are being wasted by fighting with each other. See on mulle nii kurb.

Let’s move forward together and continue to grow our rich cultural history, rather than pull ourselves apart at the seams.
shadow12 Feb 2018 08:21
There will be sun "in the late afternoon". - Kongats.
the bus13 Feb 2018 06:52
Most people take ten steps south to the bus stop and take the bus directly into the subway station. So why the reference to a long walk along 'unsafe' Broadview.
Minu arvamus12 Feb 2018 08:27
It's always easy to say we should unite, but this division is pretty hard to heal. Madison won't solve it. You will lose a lot of people who are tired of fighting the Big 4. What's the point? We just won't come back. We will focus on our jobs and take part in other activities. There is no energy left to build a parking lot, except maybe for Jaan Meri and his family. Sad, very sad. Takes away Eesti 100. Good luck to the winners! :-(
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Minu arvamus (20:14)
There is no perfect solution!12 Feb 2018 08:32
Kadri says she "does not recall the Eesti Maja Juhatus ever, much less recently when things were going down, reach out to the community for financial help or ideas."

As another commentator pointed out, this process has been underway for over 10 years with dozens of options evaluated.

If community keeps looking for a perfect solution we'll be out in an industrial yard in a windowless building, like the Hungarians in no time (https://www.thestar.com/news/g....

To help recollection here is a sample of this never ending process -

2010 - http://www.eesti.ca/community-...

2011 - http://www.eesti.ca/eesti-maja...

2012 - http://www.eesti.ca/its-time-t...

2013 - http://www.eesti.ca/toronto-ee...

2014 - http://www.eesti.ca/update-fro...

2014 - http://www.eesti.ca/update-fro...

2015 -
http://eestielu.com/en/announc...

2015 - http://www.eesti.ca/em-board-n...

2017 - http://www.eesti.ca/madison-pr...

2017 - https://news.err.ee/592321/tor...

2018 - http://eestielu.com/en/organiz...
Madison not a good choice12 Feb 2018 10:02
People are not looking for a perfect solution. The Madison option is not a palatable option. Because of significant deficiencies, a large number of people will not be using it.

The Madison choice is driving a wedge between community members.

Therefore: find another location or stay at Broadview.
Minu arvamus12 Feb 2018 08:38
This says it all! Can we not dump the board, can nothing be done? I am ashamed of my Estonian roots. This is like being in the old Soviet Union, all raise your hands to the Big 4!

"According to the Agenda of the Special Meeting (below) there is no vote scheduled, so there really is no need for proxies. If someone cannot attend, they should not have a concern about their vote not being counted..."
From Toomas at eestielu.ca comments.
1. Call to order. Opening the meeting.
2. Presentation of current status of the Estonian House development proposal.
3. Adjournment

In other words, listen to us, you have no say, pack your bags, it's time to get out. Fine. Will do exactly that!
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Minu arvamus (20:14), Minu arvamus (08:27)
Evi Vahtra12 Feb 2018 11:06
As a shareholder, I received a notice of this meeting from Eesti Maja.
With that was a letter from the "friends" of Eesti Maja demanding a meeting for information.
They are getting exactly the meeting they asked for, no point in blaming Eesti Maja.

And furthermore, Eesti Maja has had ten years of meetings discussing its future.
It's sad to see that there are people, some of whom who don't even live in Toronto and have shown no interest until now, who value a tired pile of bricks over the community and its future.
shiny over heart12 Feb 2018 14:08
Working in the EH, how could you not be aware of people who will not set foot in the Madison building? Some say that it is because of the issue with traffic. Others say that Tartu College, and by extension, Madison is not for them. It’s the “common people” who will suffer, the ones who do not need a shiny glass-concrete showy centre and who will never feel comfortable in it. Not the academics and slick business types with fancy titles coming up with quick-fix ways to answer the community’s problems by selling off something that could be viable (you need vision) and building something at a premium price tag that does not satisfy the community’s needs.

Eesti Maja was built brick by brick (now tired bricks, as you derisively describe these) by the common people. These people are not part of the Madison equation.

Did anyone ask whether a community centre at Madison was what the people wanted? No, they just powered on through without doing their homework, now they are surprised and are wondering what the fuss is about.

And how can you not have vision as to what the present Estonian House can be? Build on top, gut, renovate. Sadly, we live in a disposable society. Toss the old and spend, spend, spend through the nose for something ill-fitting but shiny and new.
onlooker12 Feb 2018 10:26
this article is both a breath of fresh air and credible compared to the plethora of questionable verbiage distributed over the recent weeks. If you believe in the vision presented put together an alternative plan that is feasible and sustainable. unfortunately there has been a lot of sitting on ones hands from April of last year until now and the alternative has not progressed. Is it good enough to just fix the roof , put in a new boiler and leave the rest as is? I think not.
Please no more salacious comments based on opinion and not fact!
Faith in the process.12 Feb 2018 10:45
The author of this article has not resided in Toronto for over 20 years and quite obviously has not stayed informed. Looking forward to the information that will be provided by EM juhatus this evening about the project and next steps.
Our community has been through fissures in the past and has always come together in the end. No need for hysteria.
Thank you for the countless volunteer hours being put in by EM juhatus and Eesti Keskuse project volunteers!
Befuddled13 Feb 2018 12:45
This is not a relevant comment. In this age of the internet it does not matter where you live. The author was born in Toronto, and has obvious affection for the esto house. Her parents were war refugees, among those who built the EM. Now we live in T.O by choice, could move, as some have, to Eesti.

Toronto is the capital of Estonia abroad. The future of its community home, which is the cultural home, while Madison really only offers the latter, should matter to all Estonians. Regardless of place/country of residence, be it Michigan or Mõisaküla.
Emperor's New Clothes12 Feb 2018 11:05
What's the meaning of the phrase 'The emperor's new clothes'?

The label given to any fictional item that viewers have been induced into believing as real..

Seems the author sees things for what they truly are.
Rootsist12 Feb 2018 11:59
Kas see vastab tôele, et täna ôhtul otsustatakse Eesti Maja saatus ja et on oodata, et see ikka kallutatakse nii, et juriidiliselt ja protsessiliselt kuidagi saavad suurema osa hääli need, kes algusest peale tahavad, et seda maja ei oleks, tahavad ebakindlat muudatust ise midagi kaalule panemata? Valgustage kuidas asjad lähevad. Praeguses keerulises olukorras maailmas on iga eestlaste kants tähtis. Eriti tähtis on pika traditsiooniga Toronto kants. Kirjelduste järgi on Eesti majas koos käimine tähtis paljudele. Hoiame oma rahvast ja oma järjepidevust. See on meie kohus. Tsitaat: "Eesti Maja on Toronto eestlaste kodu. Seda on ehitatud pühendumuses ja armastustegudega, usus ja lootuses oma rahva kestmisesse. Üksnes Loojale toetudes ja oma kodutundes võivad saada tõelisuseks poeedi sõnad, mis hoone nurgakivisse raiutud: „Me kestame üle aja! “
Evi Vahtra12 Feb 2018 12:17
Otsus tehti eelmisel aastal.
Täna on ettenähtud ainult informatsiooni koosolek, nagu nõutud "sõprade" poolt.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: Evi Vahtra (11:06)
Unwholesome suppression12 Feb 2018 12:29
It is bizarre that at a “Town Hall” people were sworn to secrecy, and ostensibly because one person replied that they did not understand Estonian, only English was allowed (with the exception of a long preamble) at the “Private meeting for Estonian Community Only”. The ostensible reason for the secrecy given below should be verified with the Ward 20 Councillor (I think Joe Cressy would be shocked by these proceedings, as well he should be), and the legitimacy of the vote that took place not long afterwards questioned. The more recent role of the EE, operating out of TC, should also be examined with respect to its mandate for which it receives Canadian funding.

Until the 2017 “Town Hall” the shareholders had not been asked outright to give up their economic and political decision-making power; though there was some concern about ownership - “Oma tuba, oma luba” - in the previous failed developer projects. Alternatives that were never considered publicly nor the reasons for this given are reported and translated below, after the report of the March-April 2017 debacle.

“The tight message control favoured by the above boards [4orgs] was carried over to the town hall meeting, ostensibly due to confidentiality agreement between Build Toronto and the Madison group. Only community members were permitted to the meeting and all filming and photography was initially prohibited. This request was later relaxed to cover only part of the meeting. The desire for such secrecy is highly questionable, as the purported goal of the town hall was to disseminate the information within the community and to build community support for this alternative solution. . . Due to the confidentiality requirements cited by the Madison group, the more thorough and detailed review of the proposal has to wait for some unspecified future date. Since we respect the request for confidentiality, we cannot report about the development proposal itself”.

http://www.eesti.ca/madison-pr...

http://www.eesti.ca/index.php?...

(and many articles subsequently, also in English)

http://eestielu.com/en/news/lo...

“Two possible compromises have been put forward. Architect Guido Laikve’s plan to carry out the current house’s renovation gradually, so as to avoid the interruption of activities, has received much positive response. Why the future committee is not treating it as worthy of consideration, has perhaps been a topic for discussion, but the results of these talks have not been made public. The first (and so far the only) logical drawback was brought forward by the C & W [Cushman and Wakefield] representative: a gradual rebuilding would mean a long-term “stay on a construction site”. Our own folks perhaps would be willing to deal with this, but the rental of rooms, especially securing permanent tenants, would surely become more difficult.

It is also hard to comprehend why the option to join with the Latvian Cultural Centre has so lightly (without much thought) been abandoned. The location is not in terms of accessibility much worse than the current (if at all); we have a great example in the Vana Andres congregation of working together with the Latvians. Recall, too, that it was never the intention to become tenants of the Latvians, but rather equal partners.

Getting back to the meeting it was somewhat discomfiting that although there were many businesslike questions, these were directed to the wrong individuals. C&W representatives were forced repeatedly to explain that their expertise was limited to a knowledge of real estate. Responses to the majority of questions should have come from the EM Future Committee ...

Jne. And soforth.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: shadow (08:21)
For the record12 Feb 2018 12:33
In the original Estonian:

"Võimalikke kompromisse on välja pakutud kaks. Arhitekt Guido Laikve kava teostada olemasoleva maja ümberehitamine järk-järgult, nii et tegevuses ei tekiks katkestust, on leidnud palju positiivset vastukaja. Miks tulevikukomitee seda võimalust arvestatavaks ei pea, sellest võib olla kõneldud, kuid kõneluste tulemusi pole avalikustatud. Esimese (ja siiani ainsa) loogilise miinuse tõi äsjasel koosolekul esile C&W esindaja: järk-järguline ümberehitus tähendaks pikaajalist „ehitusplatsil viibimist”. Oma inimesed lepiksid ehk sellega, kuid ruumide üürimine, eriti püsiüürnike soetamine muutuks kindlasti raskemaks.

Ei suuda ka aru saada, miks on nii kergekäeliselt hüljatud Läti Kultuurikeskusega ühinemise mõte. Asukoht ei ole kättesaadavuse mõttes palju halvem kui praegune (kui üldse); avarad ruumid on juba olemas, nii et tegevus ei tarvitseks katkeda: lätlastega sõbralikuks koostööks on meil Vana-Andrese koguduse näol olemas suurepärane näide. Meenutatagu ka, et iial pole olnud meil kavatsust minna lätlastele üürnikeks, vaid võrdseteks partneriteks.

Koosoleku juurde tagasi tulles mõjus mõnigal määral häirivalt, et kuigi esitati hulgaliselt asjalikke küsimusi, olid need suunatud valedele isikutele. C&W esindajad olid sunnitud korduvalt seletama, et nende ekspertiis piirdub kinnisvaraturu tundmisega. Enamusele küsimustest pidanuks vastused andma EM Tuleviku Komitee, mille liikmeskond tunneb eesti rahva soove ja vajadusi."

http://eestielu.com/en/news/lo...
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: shadow (08:21), Unwholesome suppression (12:29)
An Observer12 Feb 2018 22:39
I am so with "Uhineme". I was at the special meeting that was requisitioned by Heidi Laike et al. (No one asked what the cost of calling this meeting was.) I agree that the dissemination of information is a good thing. However, this would have been accomplished at the community meetings. We have spent a decade attempting to resolve what we might do with the EH. Three failed deals. Now, we are so damn close. With this being the closest we have been. Let's take pride in our Estonian heritage! Time to move on. Post-WW2 refugees pooled their resources for the Broadview facility. We are not refugees. We as their children and grandchildren should strive to have a facility that reflects the success that we have enjoyed in Canada.
curb appeal12 Feb 2018 23:01
... just don't forget the needs of the grandparents who are bankrolling your sweet new digs ... they feel like you are kicking them to the curb. Not the Estonian way, must be the new generation Canadian way.
Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: shiny over heart (14:08)
Tunnistame ausalt üles13 Feb 2018 01:21
et see Madison Ave. idee pole mitte ainult "ideefiks" (kinnisidee) ühe suhteliselt kitsa kamba jaoks kes ei tundu just kõige eetilisemaid-demokraatlikke võtteid kasutavat, aga et see tundub ka üks " b a s t a r d i d e a " olevat, vabandage keelepruuki. Vaja on mugavat kodu või selle aseainet, mitte läikivat klotsi. Kui see vana kodu veidi ringi teha või midagi muud uut asemele vaadata, ei takista mittekeegi meid ka seal kultuuriüritusi korraldamast. Üks ei välista kuidagi teist, Madisonist ei kujune aga kunagi ilmselt kodu, mis asendaks seda praegust võimalust mida nüüd elimineerida tahetakse. That's the point.

Igatahes toore jõu kasutamine ja oma tahte peale surumine pole kena. Soovitan kuulata või lugeda ameerika NPR raadio segmenti "A new goal: aim to be less wrong".
Rita Komendant13 Feb 2018 17:30
Kadri! Thank you for getting the 'party' rolling. Rock n' Roll. I hope there is an 'open mic' at the Sheraton or our BIG house, I have a few zingers. Well it's emblematic of the times as we have ALL lost our minds over this. In the words of my illustrious Uncle, August Komendant, mega-structural engineer known world-wide: "No aritmetik". We are better than this n'est-ce pas? See you all next weekend! Chanting: ElaguElaguElagu.
Glen Leis14 Feb 2018 12:25
Words matter, and certain words should not be used so casually for the purpose of mere exaggeration. Implying that those that wish to move Estonian House are putting our children at risk is in very bad taste and referencing ‘rape’ as an issue in this discussion diminishes the value of the term. Moving the Estonian House is not tantamount to treating the Estonian Community like Canadian Aboriginals, a silly concept that was floated a couple of months ago, nor will it result in our young people being assaulted on their way to Estonian School. Resorting to extreme, emotional concepts in lieu of facts does not serve an argument, although it does shed light on its lack of credibility.
Reader14 Feb 2018 21:54
Well, Glen, your point of toning down the hysteria is well taken, but if you maintain that there is a lack of facts, when looking at Toronto crime maps, there seems to be a noticeable difference when comparing Spadina/UofT to Broadview & Chester Hill.
Adam15 Feb 2018 01:46
You're right. There does seem to be a difference in crime stats between the two areas.

Broadview/Bloor sees pretty bad!
https://ibb.co/hGqsVn

https://ibb.co/g8sd37
To Adam15 Feb 2018 07:28
Interesting ... but what are we looking at? Pick-pocketing? Jaywalking? Would be good to know what the stats denote, taken by whom, dates covered and any other pertinent info.

Side note: Although the posts are at times acrimonious, we are all in it for the good of the community. It's been a rough ride, but we are in the midst of building a better and stronger community. There are a lot of people on both sides who really care. We have something special worth fighting for and worth molding together. We are family, and family have tiffs and eventually make up. I am looking forward to celebrating Independence Day with all of you, regardless of your position. Elagu Eesti!
concerned about safety15 Feb 2018 09:42
After the special meeting and seeing the plans, I was left thinking that there would be a pretty dangerous situation for the children.

For children to be dropped off and left without parental supervision as parking spots are sought, this leaves a risky opening for children to be abducted. The building and parkette are being designed as open to the larger community, so we would have strangers of all types walking about the premises. With huge condos right next door, certain child predators could see the routines of children being dropped off and pounce. We don't have this type of situation at the current EM.

I remember at Esto School, we were on our own during recess on a regular basis and would leave the Esto House to go to the Shop N Bag variety store next door for snacks. What if the children leave the building during recess to do the same at Madison? The risks to be abducted by predators are greater in those cases also.

As it stands the current plan should have a security desk incorporated, and there should be a budget for 24/7 security personnel. But would it be affordable?
Elmer the Safety Elephant15 Feb 2018 10:28
Madison is not a very busy pedestrian street. Even less so on Saturday mornings. The main door will not be far from the drop off area (20 feet?). If concerned, parents can get out of their cars and walk their children inside. If necessary, many schools have a teacher or two keeping an eye on things around drop off zones before and after school.

IMO the subway ride itself to TC or EM poses more risk than either neighborhood.
SÜNDMUSED LÄHIAJAL
Feb 21 2018 - Toronto Eesti Maja
Eesti Keskuse projekti koosolek
Feb 25 2018 - igas kodus
Kooslaulmine EV100
Feb 25 2018 - Üle ilma Eesti kodudes
Kooslaulmine EV100
Mar 14 2018 - Toronto Eesti Maja
Eesti Keskuse projekti koosolek

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