Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
VanemadUuemad
What an awful misleading article!
Firstly, the President of Estonia has no real power, he is basically a figurehead who doesn't create policy, rather he just rubber-stamps what is put in front of him. Thus crediting him with any economic success (leaving aside for the moment whether there is anything there worth crediting) is simply wrong.
One fact that is correct is that Estonia is the poorest country in the eurozone. Children are starving, pensioners are often toothless because they can't afford dental care - often they must choose between buying medicine or food when can't really afford either one. The unemployed have no health coverage. People are moving out of the country in droves basically becoming economic refugees. Many of those who are still "living" there are actually working outside of Estonia (most often Finland) and thus the family model of kids growing up hardly ever seeing their father is almost becoming the norm.
It seems like readers of this paper by and large don't realize the harsh reality of life in Estonia today and thus when politicians like Ilves, Ansip, Lang etc. come here to speak they are greeted with applause when they talk about how wonderful things are. Me, I just want to throw up and then hit somebody. For them, sure things are wonderful but as far as I am concerned, they have sold out their own people and belong in jail for their crimes.
Maybe one day people here will wake up and dare to ask some hard questions of people like Ilves who merrily chirp about how wonderful things are, who talk proudly about grandiose projects like the new museum costing millions while the people starve. That new museum is far from the only project which is evidence of the megalomania that has politicians in this poor country in it's grip. Our morally bankrupt leaders piss away millions and millions and beat their chests with pride telling the world how wonderful things are in Estonia while the common people are quietly suffering, starving, living in generally poor conditions and often opting to move emigrate if they can.
What a crying shame that this proud nation survived hundreds of years of occupation, then finally achieve freedom and are now being sold out by their own. Will Estonia survive? I have my doubts.
The young and strong are leaving and who can blame them? We all only have one life to live, why live in poverty in a society where those in power behave like leeches sucking their blood when they can live someplace else where they can feel like they are being treated like human beings.
What a sad state of affairs, when seniors in Estonia have given up hope of a better future for the coming generations, but are instead telling their grandchildren to concentrate on learning English so that they can flee Estonia so that they can lead a decent life. They fought for freedom. Now that freedom is being used to flee the occupier who this time around is not a foreign occupier, but the corrupt among their own who call themselves the "eliit". Andres Kivirahk said it well drawing a paralell to Orwell's Animal Farm, "the pigs are pretending that they are the elite".
And as far as internet freedom does, perhaps those who hand out such designations aren't aware that censorship is very much alive in Estonia. I have often noticed in delfi.ee (most visited news site in Estonia) that sometimes when a particularly well written critique of the govt. appears, it soon disappears. Internet freedom as long as you don't criticize the govt. too harshly is the situation today.
Maybe what I have now written will suffer the same fate. Go ahead, delete this if you like. I have spoken a truth that unfortunately most people here don't want to hear.
Firstly, the President of Estonia has no real power, he is basically a figurehead who doesn't create policy, rather he just rubber-stamps what is put in front of him. Thus crediting him with any economic success (leaving aside for the moment whether there is anything there worth crediting) is simply wrong.
One fact that is correct is that Estonia is the poorest country in the eurozone. Children are starving, pensioners are often toothless because they can't afford dental care - often they must choose between buying medicine or food when can't really afford either one. The unemployed have no health coverage. People are moving out of the country in droves basically becoming economic refugees. Many of those who are still "living" there are actually working outside of Estonia (most often Finland) and thus the family model of kids growing up hardly ever seeing their father is almost becoming the norm.
It seems like readers of this paper by and large don't realize the harsh reality of life in Estonia today and thus when politicians like Ilves, Ansip, Lang etc. come here to speak they are greeted with applause when they talk about how wonderful things are. Me, I just want to throw up and then hit somebody. For them, sure things are wonderful but as far as I am concerned, they have sold out their own people and belong in jail for their crimes.
Maybe one day people here will wake up and dare to ask some hard questions of people like Ilves who merrily chirp about how wonderful things are, who talk proudly about grandiose projects like the new museum costing millions while the people starve. That new museum is far from the only project which is evidence of the megalomania that has politicians in this poor country in it's grip. Our morally bankrupt leaders piss away millions and millions and beat their chests with pride telling the world how wonderful things are in Estonia while the common people are quietly suffering, starving, living in generally poor conditions and often opting to move emigrate if they can.
What a crying shame that this proud nation survived hundreds of years of occupation, then finally achieve freedom and are now being sold out by their own. Will Estonia survive? I have my doubts.
The young and strong are leaving and who can blame them? We all only have one life to live, why live in poverty in a society where those in power behave like leeches sucking their blood when they can live someplace else where they can feel like they are being treated like human beings.
What a sad state of affairs, when seniors in Estonia have given up hope of a better future for the coming generations, but are instead telling their grandchildren to concentrate on learning English so that they can flee Estonia so that they can lead a decent life. They fought for freedom. Now that freedom is being used to flee the occupier who this time around is not a foreign occupier, but the corrupt among their own who call themselves the "eliit". Andres Kivirahk said it well drawing a paralell to Orwell's Animal Farm, "the pigs are pretending that they are the elite".
And as far as internet freedom does, perhaps those who hand out such designations aren't aware that censorship is very much alive in Estonia. I have often noticed in delfi.ee (most visited news site in Estonia) that sometimes when a particularly well written critique of the govt. appears, it soon disappears. Internet freedom as long as you don't criticize the govt. too harshly is the situation today.
Maybe what I have now written will suffer the same fate. Go ahead, delete this if you like. I have spoken a truth that unfortunately most people here don't want to hear.
7
15tI feel that the critic in question is too harsh and mouthing off a bit without precise statements or overview. Estonia is a complex country as are all countries. And yes, the poverty needs to be addressed.
The Estonian government;s development of technology and their media efforts are keeping them safer than they otherwise would be, as it garners support from rest of Europe and USA. Now they need to put this support to better use. Also more awareness of global reference frameworks would help -- to discuss relative poverty in Estonian and world context is good To discuss the unemployment in more precise terms than just shrugs and gentle humour would be nice. Pres Ilves needs to brace himself and hold think tanks - include some of the more aware seers of both emigre and Estonian extraction like Rein Taagepera) and get some overview of how to define Estonia today. (It doesn't always help to have a chorus of Estonia supporters in the Diaspora -- to almost religious proportions, forgetting they are a part of another country too, which could give them some ballast. It is good for Estonian to learn more about other countries. When I see how relaxed Pres. Ilves is in his speech-making in the Estonian House and I compare it with his grimmaces and signs of insecurity when he is outside of Estonian circles, I realize how he grew up in the emigre society and didn't learn enough or identify enough with being an American, his adopted homeland. Estonian born and bred people are sometimes more global minded than emigre raised ones. These are just my spontaneous thoughts. Might be making some mistakes here. But it is how I feel today,.
The Estonian government;s development of technology and their media efforts are keeping them safer than they otherwise would be, as it garners support from rest of Europe and USA. Now they need to put this support to better use. Also more awareness of global reference frameworks would help -- to discuss relative poverty in Estonian and world context is good To discuss the unemployment in more precise terms than just shrugs and gentle humour would be nice. Pres Ilves needs to brace himself and hold think tanks - include some of the more aware seers of both emigre and Estonian extraction like Rein Taagepera) and get some overview of how to define Estonia today. (It doesn't always help to have a chorus of Estonia supporters in the Diaspora -- to almost religious proportions, forgetting they are a part of another country too, which could give them some ballast. It is good for Estonian to learn more about other countries. When I see how relaxed Pres. Ilves is in his speech-making in the Estonian House and I compare it with his grimmaces and signs of insecurity when he is outside of Estonian circles, I realize how he grew up in the emigre society and didn't learn enough or identify enough with being an American, his adopted homeland. Estonian born and bred people are sometimes more global minded than emigre raised ones. These are just my spontaneous thoughts. Might be making some mistakes here. But it is how I feel today,.
3
6During which period in history were Estonians better off than they are now?
13
1Not sure what you're getting at with your question. I wasn't drawing any comparison to some other point in time, if anything I am "comparing" the situation there today to what it could and it should be.
Then again, is it in my opinion a rather depressing sign of how bad things are that many in Estonia in recent years have begun to speak almost with nostalgia about the soviet times, at least then people weren't going hungry.
Of course there is also the period of time between WW1 and WW2, in a very short time a nation was built that was doing rather well with a standard of living comparable to Finland for example. So I guess that would be a simple answer to your question.
Viewed from afar, it easy to say that yay, Estonia is free, look at internet freedom, look at this wonderful new museum etc. But if you talk to some average people there, then you realize that what is seen from Canada is a superficial surface image and you don't see the corruption and the rot below the surface.
Ilves spoke of this "debt of honor" that this supposedly being paid by this new museum. A terrible waste of hundreds of millions if you ask the average Estonian struggling to make ends meet. What about the pensioners of today? These are the people who lived their entire life under soviet rule, then finally saw freedom and hoped that at least their children would have a decent life in a free Estonia and maybe even thought that their lot might get somewhat better. Go look for yourself and compare the average tourist pensioner from Finland or Sweden with what an average pensioner in Estonia looks like. They conditions some of these people are living ... I don't even have words for it. This money wasted on grandiose projects could (and should in my opinion) be spent to help people who need help TODAY! But they are being ignored. Oh well, maybe some tens of years from now when they are dead, another museum will be built to pay of that "debt of honor".
Trust me, there are many who feel this way but don't speak up because they get shouted down, no one wants to hear unpleasant truths. Some day, hopefully the truth will emere, hell it's there to see now. Just start following Estonian news and read the comments to the articles in the internet and you will start to see what people there really think. Of course bear in mind that politicians there are paid to post positive comments about the govt., this has been a poorly kept secret for a long time but recently was brought into the spotlight again.
It's all there. The question is - do you really care enough to investigate a bit. Or do you want to keep thinking all is well and good in Estonia and the nation has leaders it can be proud of?
Then again, is it in my opinion a rather depressing sign of how bad things are that many in Estonia in recent years have begun to speak almost with nostalgia about the soviet times, at least then people weren't going hungry.
Of course there is also the period of time between WW1 and WW2, in a very short time a nation was built that was doing rather well with a standard of living comparable to Finland for example. So I guess that would be a simple answer to your question.
Viewed from afar, it easy to say that yay, Estonia is free, look at internet freedom, look at this wonderful new museum etc. But if you talk to some average people there, then you realize that what is seen from Canada is a superficial surface image and you don't see the corruption and the rot below the surface.
Ilves spoke of this "debt of honor" that this supposedly being paid by this new museum. A terrible waste of hundreds of millions if you ask the average Estonian struggling to make ends meet. What about the pensioners of today? These are the people who lived their entire life under soviet rule, then finally saw freedom and hoped that at least their children would have a decent life in a free Estonia and maybe even thought that their lot might get somewhat better. Go look for yourself and compare the average tourist pensioner from Finland or Sweden with what an average pensioner in Estonia looks like. They conditions some of these people are living ... I don't even have words for it. This money wasted on grandiose projects could (and should in my opinion) be spent to help people who need help TODAY! But they are being ignored. Oh well, maybe some tens of years from now when they are dead, another museum will be built to pay of that "debt of honor".
Trust me, there are many who feel this way but don't speak up because they get shouted down, no one wants to hear unpleasant truths. Some day, hopefully the truth will emere, hell it's there to see now. Just start following Estonian news and read the comments to the articles in the internet and you will start to see what people there really think. Of course bear in mind that politicians there are paid to post positive comments about the govt., this has been a poorly kept secret for a long time but recently was brought into the spotlight again.
It's all there. The question is - do you really care enough to investigate a bit. Or do you want to keep thinking all is well and good in Estonia and the nation has leaders it can be proud of?
3
10Estonia isn't the Garden of Eden; nor is it Heaven!
What can remedy this catastrophe?
The firm hand of an omniscient like Stalin, or Bob Rae?
What can remedy this catastrophe?
The firm hand of an omniscient like Stalin, or Bob Rae?
8
0Was I too harsh? Perhaps. You said yourself that these are just your "spontaneous thoughts", well same goes for me.
Looking back at what I wrote, maybe I was a bit over the top with my comment about "leeches". What can I say, I am very angry about what is happening in Eesti.
I suggest you go to Eesti yourself and ask 100 people from all walks of life what they think about what I wrote. You might be surprised at the responses you get. I lived there for many years and spoke to many people so I know what I am talking about.
As far as the snarky comment from someone else asking if need Stalin or Rae ... what we need if politicians who really care about the future of Eesti. I suggest you pay attention to Mart Helme who is forming a new party. I believe that he is an honest man, I like most of what he has had to say so far and will likely be voting for him in the upcoming elections. One thing he said he would is start a national bank. That would be a very good start, why should bank profits flow out of the country as they are doing now? If you are interested, you can read for yourself who Mart Helme is and what he stands for.
Mare you can forget about think tanks etc., this has been done and nothing has ever come from it. Also again, realize that Ilves has no real power himself anyway. I am by no means blaming him for the situation in Eesti today though it would be nice to hear him once in while speak on behalf of the "common man", it seems like nobody is doing that today.
Have you heard of Andrus Kivirähk? He is a very well respected individual who was written many books (including the wonderful Lotte series for children). He has also had a very popular radio show for many years where he comments on Eesti affairs and he writes a a regular newspaper column. I will give you a link to an article he wrote on the occasion of Vabariigi Aastapäev. There are at the moment 284 internet comments to that article. If you read through the article and some of those comments you will see for yourself that what I have written is a very reasonable representation of how people feel. He writes a regular column. If you want to educate yourself on what is really going on in Eesti, his columns are an excellent place to start.
Also, I will give you a link to what Mart Helme recently wrote, I recommend reading that as well. The only hope for Eesti is to get some honest people in power, I will not tire of saying that. There are almost 900 comments to that article, I suggest reading at least the first 20 or so that have the most "thumbs up", again, do this and you will have a much better understanding of how people there really feel! The comment with the most thumbs up (over 2000) contains this gem
"See, kuidas nad alati räägivad, et kõik on meil korras on lihtsalt naeruväärne!"
This is EXACTLY what I am saying. Hearing politicians go on and on about how wonderful things are is offensive. Not just to me, but to the average person in Estonia. Again, what I have written about the state of affairs today is not some radical view point but is something most people in Eesti would agree with.
http://www.epl.ee/news/arvamus...
http://www.delfi.ee/news/paeva...
Looking back at what I wrote, maybe I was a bit over the top with my comment about "leeches". What can I say, I am very angry about what is happening in Eesti.
I suggest you go to Eesti yourself and ask 100 people from all walks of life what they think about what I wrote. You might be surprised at the responses you get. I lived there for many years and spoke to many people so I know what I am talking about.
As far as the snarky comment from someone else asking if need Stalin or Rae ... what we need if politicians who really care about the future of Eesti. I suggest you pay attention to Mart Helme who is forming a new party. I believe that he is an honest man, I like most of what he has had to say so far and will likely be voting for him in the upcoming elections. One thing he said he would is start a national bank. That would be a very good start, why should bank profits flow out of the country as they are doing now? If you are interested, you can read for yourself who Mart Helme is and what he stands for.
Mare you can forget about think tanks etc., this has been done and nothing has ever come from it. Also again, realize that Ilves has no real power himself anyway. I am by no means blaming him for the situation in Eesti today though it would be nice to hear him once in while speak on behalf of the "common man", it seems like nobody is doing that today.
Have you heard of Andrus Kivirähk? He is a very well respected individual who was written many books (including the wonderful Lotte series for children). He has also had a very popular radio show for many years where he comments on Eesti affairs and he writes a a regular newspaper column. I will give you a link to an article he wrote on the occasion of Vabariigi Aastapäev. There are at the moment 284 internet comments to that article. If you read through the article and some of those comments you will see for yourself that what I have written is a very reasonable representation of how people feel. He writes a regular column. If you want to educate yourself on what is really going on in Eesti, his columns are an excellent place to start.
Also, I will give you a link to what Mart Helme recently wrote, I recommend reading that as well. The only hope for Eesti is to get some honest people in power, I will not tire of saying that. There are almost 900 comments to that article, I suggest reading at least the first 20 or so that have the most "thumbs up", again, do this and you will have a much better understanding of how people there really feel! The comment with the most thumbs up (over 2000) contains this gem
"See, kuidas nad alati räägivad, et kõik on meil korras on lihtsalt naeruväärne!"
This is EXACTLY what I am saying. Hearing politicians go on and on about how wonderful things are is offensive. Not just to me, but to the average person in Estonia. Again, what I have written about the state of affairs today is not some radical view point but is something most people in Eesti would agree with.
http://www.epl.ee/news/arvamus...
http://www.delfi.ee/news/paeva...
2
5Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: well ... (14:22)
The simplest way to educate yourself (assuming anyone sincerely wants to know what is going on in Eesti today) is to follow the news. Go to www.delfi.ee every day, do a quick scan of the articles that have to do with politics or economics and when you see an article that has hundreds of comments you can be sure that the topic is of interest to the people. Read the article, then read at least the top 20 or so comments (top meaning they got the most thumbs up from the readers). Do this for a while and then draw your own conclusions.
You can start with this article that it at the moment at the very top of the front page of delfi:
http://www.delfi.ee/news/paeva...
Here are excerpts from the comments which sit at #1 and #2 respectively going by the thumbs up:
#1
... kes kahtleb, et meid valitsevad omakasupüüdlikud, mitte eriti ausad ja korrumpeerunud inimesed? ...
#2
... Siiralt kahju, et poliitika nii räpane on ja veel presidentki on kambas. ...
These is stuff like this every single day. If you don't believe me, read for yourself. Like I said before, the only question is do you really want to be informed? The truth is not pleasant, but it is nevertheless the truth!
You can start with this article that it at the moment at the very top of the front page of delfi:
http://www.delfi.ee/news/paeva...
Here are excerpts from the comments which sit at #1 and #2 respectively going by the thumbs up:
#1
... kes kahtleb, et meid valitsevad omakasupüüdlikud, mitte eriti ausad ja korrumpeerunud inimesed? ...
#2
... Siiralt kahju, et poliitika nii räpane on ja veel presidentki on kambas. ...
These is stuff like this every single day. If you don't believe me, read for yourself. Like I said before, the only question is do you really want to be informed? The truth is not pleasant, but it is nevertheless the truth!
2
5Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: well ... (14:22), well ... (10:20)
.... I doubt it! I have a feeling that you're going to stay here and bark at us, for some time to come, because we don't care about tens of thousands of starving children!
If you know of a starving child in Estonia, please save him/her by calling the authority which deals with child abuse. The child will be rescued and the parents will go to jail where they belong.
You sound like a megalomaniac -- convinced that you're the only one who knows anything. Maxim de la Trine used to lecture us in a similarly obnoxious manner. Are you picking up where he left off?
If you know of a starving child in Estonia, please save him/her by calling the authority which deals with child abuse. The child will be rescued and the parents will go to jail where they belong.
You sound like a megalomaniac -- convinced that you're the only one who knows anything. Maxim de la Trine used to lecture us in a similarly obnoxious manner. Are you picking up where he left off?
3
4I gave you some links. If you read those articles and some of the comments to them you will see that I am far from "the only one". It's really up to you.
1
3Samalt IP numbrilt on siin varem kommenteerinud: well ... (14:22), well ... (10:20), one last thought (12:02)
Dana - Kelly, these shots are amazing .and Tara your kids have grown up so fast. Avery is bfetuiaul and looks just like her mama. Ben is adorable. Love the outfits too.Kelly you amaze me, and I am so looking forward to our shoot this summer!!05/10/2011 10:34 pm
0
0I just read your posted comment, thanks for this. I have the same read on Estonia from speaking to people there..that the common Estonian is struggling.
I am going to make the assumption that you are an Estonian Canadian, as am I.
We live in a country that is relatively prosperous, and as Estos we save frugally and tend to be well connected with other Estonians...and we are stubborn about getting things done.
My question to you and other Estonians: What can you and I do to make lives better for Estonians in Estonia?
I mean a practical project, not lip-service. I am up for the challenge and would work together with like-minded Estonians willing to put their nose to the grindstone.
I am going to make the assumption that you are an Estonian Canadian, as am I.
We live in a country that is relatively prosperous, and as Estos we save frugally and tend to be well connected with other Estonians...and we are stubborn about getting things done.
My question to you and other Estonians: What can you and I do to make lives better for Estonians in Estonia?
I mean a practical project, not lip-service. I am up for the challenge and would work together with like-minded Estonians willing to put their nose to the grindstone.
0
0ndzairys
0
0Kommentaarid sellele artiklile on suletud.
