Estdocs review: Men From a Forgotten Army
Kommentaarid on kirjutatud EWR lugejate poolt. Nende sisu ei pruugi ühtida EWR toimetuse seisukohtadega.
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Maxim27 Oct 2006 11:38
I think I'll pass on commenting on this one. It's a touchy subject, and let me just say that a few Estonian journalists have recently got the subject right, especially the ones writing for EPL. There is a new and distinctively different line of thinking emerging on this subject, and I for one welcome it with the best of intentions.
A.N.27 Oct 2006 13:18
I'm waiting, with bated breath, for you to enlighten us, oh Maximus!
What is it that you're trying to tell us about this company?
Anonymous27 Oct 2006 13:21
What qualifies Maxim as the ultimate judge of everything -- past, present and future?

It's simply crazy that he defers to neither expert observers nor authors of events; and crazier still that he thinks that there are people who wish to listen to him.
A.N.27 Oct 2006 13:30
Strange! I just did a search in EPL online, and nowhere could I find anything about 4221!
Maximouth, you're just shooting the s__ again!
Maxim27 Oct 2006 22:59
EE_Lugeja28 Oct 2006 02:42
So then Maxim believes that the Russian barbarians liberated Tallinn in 1944 !!!!!!!!
.28 Oct 2006 07:15
Maxim left our community for Estonia many years ago; but, his grudges are as fresh as ever. So he's back here, in print, almost every day with an "idea" -- more accurately -- an ill-disguised taunt. Why?
Because he hasn't learned enough proper Estonian to integrate into Estonia's life and, therefore, he's as much of a misfit there as he was here.
We're all losers here. To our community, he's an irritant and an embarrassment; and Maxim, preoccupied by grudges, can't get started with his new life in Estonia.
.
Anonymous28 Oct 2006 11:00
"The Soviet Army expelled the German Army from Tallinn and later returned to Russia."

From this, a nut with a grudge can confidently assert that the Soviets liberated Tallinn from the Nazis.

Thanks Maxim.
Anonymous28 Oct 2006 11:06
Seems that many readers know who Maxim is.
I'd like to know.
Sounds like a commie & an aggitator.
His comments do us no good.
Viktoriin, kes MAXIM on29 Oct 2006 00:41
Maxim:

Sundinud: 20 juuni 1939
"false advertising alert!"28 Oct 2006 11:26
The article that Maxim refers us to doesn't, as he says, "get the subject right". It doesn't represent current opinion among journalists, the consensus among contemporary historians, or anything other than the scribblings of a cocky journalist who wanted to let the cat among the pigeons. In a more sophisticated manner, he employs some of the same debater's tricks that Maxim mistakes for logical argument.
And note that in Estonia the article was received much as it would have been here.
Maxim28 Oct 2006 12:20
Veispak is simply a genius! His line of thinking is the one which everyone else missed at the crucial time of formulating opinion on this subject. That's why there is such hysteria in the community at large-for fear that the truth will eventually reach people who have suspected something wrong in the political talk up to now. Veispak is highly respected in Estonia, and it is quite usual for thinkers to get rubbished for what they believe is truth. Sadly, the same applies in Canada.
where's the genius?28 Oct 2006 20:34
For readers who have a tough time with Estonian, the following is a synoptic translation of the article that Maxim views as a work of genius.
================================

The 22nd of September still generates mixed feelings based on the media's diffusion of the hysterical, super-arrogant, nationalistic assumption that the Soviets occupied Tallinn on September 22, 1944.

This is the result of historical literature and political propaganda composed during the past 10-15 years. This vision is systematically stuffed into students until it's a part of their nationalistic character.

Like my rationally thinking colleagues, I [Veispak] am of a different view: unquestionably, the Soviets forced the fascist occupiers out of Tallinn; but Estonia wasn't an ally of the Nazis nor at war with the Soviets. It couldn't be conquered or occupied because Estonia had already forfeited its independence at the beginning of the war by joining the Soviet Union.

Veispak goes on to diminish the importance of the Estonian Republic's continued recognition de jure and that Estonian military units fought for it in German uniforms.

It's worrisome, nonetheless, that these men are now viewed as fighters for Estonian independence and, more so, while the Estonians in Soviet units are not.

All of this is about the search for heroes that we really don't need.

Favouring one side or the other will only further fray our already fractured society economically, nationalistically and culturally; something that we don't need.

I don't know how many people today still view the nation-state as an ideal. More often it seems that life with a partner of any nationality is a more common ideal. I don't believe that we need any heroes from the ranks of Soviet or German combatants. Their fate was tragic and, in spite of some victories, they ultimately lost. In the long run, the men who liberated Tallinn were also losers. After the fact, and in spite of the efforts of our politicians, there'll be no heroes among those who, in German uniform, retreated from the Narva front to the Czech Hell because they had already lost the war in May of 1945. Time can't change that. The losers are memorialized in cemeteries.
=================================

Is this genius, Maxim? To me, it sounds like vaporing by someone with a shakey hold on the facts and no moral bearings.

What's wrong with you anyway?
Toomas Merilo28 Oct 2006 22:37
MAXIM calls Veispak a genius, because Veispak sees an [i]equivalence[i] between those who fought on the side of the USSR and those who had to don German uniforms in an attempt to forestall a Soviet re-invasion.

Well let’s step back: There was a time when there was serious discussion about whether the earth was flat or spherical. Eventually the latter “opinion” prevailed. But now we do know that both sides were wrong. The earth is not flat, but neither is it a perfect sphere.

And here’s the rub… Once again Maxim has shown his own superior intelligence by attempting to tell us that someone (Veispak) who sees both sides is a genius.

Well, I don’t buy it. To say the “flat-earther” deserves the same academic respect as one who erred by positing a perfectly spherical earth is reprehensible [i](or a sign of the superior intelligence possessed by Maxim).[i]

But that is how our aging Maxim would have it. BTW don’t expect him to remember anything beyond the last hour… even that may be a stretch.
Maxim29 Oct 2006 11:12
Who wrote this translation? If it not officially approved by EE then I doubt its objectivity. And judging from the opening and closing comments, I think the person doing the translation is INCREDIBLY BIASED AGAINST Veispak. Please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong...
to Maxim29 Oct 2006 12:53
In a synoptic manner, I translated Veispak's article for the benefit of readers that would have difficulty reading it in Estonian.

I went to a great effort to translate accurately. I believe that I succeeded. Yet, you accuse me of bias.

I challenge you to select one word, phrase, sentence or paragraph that has been mis-translated in a way that casts Veispak in a bad light.

After you compare the original with the translation, you will have to agree that Veispak has cast himself in a bad light.

Of course, this challenge is open to other readers as well.
something's fishy!29 Oct 2006 21:54
1 - Maxim alerts us to an article by a genius who defied conventional wisdom and "got the subject right".

2 - Someone translates it into English and the genius looks like a pompous windbag with no critical judgment.

3- Maxim then says, "If [the translation] is not officially approved by EE then I doubt its objectivity."

4 - Is that a fact? And if so, why not check the translation yourself, Maxim? ..... Got a problem with reading Estonian, English, or both?

Something's fishy here, Maxim? Looks like you didn't bother to read the original article before recommending it and, now, you've made yourself into a laughing-stock. (Again)
Maxim29 Oct 2006 22:08
It simply maded me wonder why anyone in their right mind, having gone to such lengths for the benefit of English-speaking readers would then disqualify their efforts by making totally negative suggestions and removing one's neutrality from the translation. This is not normal journalistic practice.
to maxim30 Oct 2006 14:58
its very simple .... you want russian control over eesti and for that you can excuse estonian lives lost to soviets atrocities per ww2 and its aftermath ... (you consider yourself an estonian ?) .... to the eestlased who fought for an independent eesti, this would not be their position ... listen to Untsakad "metsa läksid sa 2' !!! ... perspective on your comment ' the now infamous Laskurkorpus, which had a damn site more to do with Estonian freedom fighting'
re - viktoriin29 Oct 2006 05:00
If it's true that Maxim was born in 1939, then there must be a race going on in his head to determine whether he will first be bald, gray or senile.........on second thought, perhaps not.

Hats off to Toomas Merilo who posts comments without a shield of anonymity. Then again, he can afford to; his comments are, without exception, informed and rational. We need more like him around here to lower the profile of a few kooks who come here with shameful intentions.
autorile29 Oct 2006 05:16
'Murelikuks teeb pigem see, et viimastel aastatel ei kuulegi midagi muud peale selle, et need eestlased, kes teenisid Relva-SS-is või teistes Saksa väeosades, on ühtäkki vabadusvõitlejad, ning need, kes kuulusid sakslaste vastu sõdiva punaarmee Eesti laskurkorpusesse, seda enam pole. Ei maksa arvata, et need kümned tuhanded eestlased, kes 1941. aastal viidi mobilisatsiooni käigus Venemaale ning kellest hiljem formeeriti Eesti laskurkorpus, oma sisimas kibedust ei tunneks – nemadki unistasid sellest, et jõuda tagasi koju ja vabastada Eesti sakslastest.' .....
... Mikspärast tuhanded eesti mehed kes kuulusid punaarmee Eesti laskurkorpusesse, esimisel võimalusel hüppasid lääne poole et vabastada-kaitsda eestit ?
(võib aimata et kui vene relvad ei oleks suunatud eesti meeste selgadele, siis see arv oleks olnud ligi 100%)
Autoril oleks kasulik näha filmi mis on tehtud Hr Kolga eluloost.
What Soviet occupation?29 Oct 2006 05:30
Essential to Veispak's argument (if it can be called as much) is the assumption that Estonia joined the Soviet Union voluntarily.

In response, I'm relieved by his concession that he holds a minority point of view.
Thanks, Merilo29 Oct 2006 06:06
Toomas Merilo's analogy about the shape of the earth is a powerful reminder of the rarity of theories that are either absolutely true or false. That the earth is flat is plausible when driving west from Winnipeg. Still, the idea that it's a perfect sphere is as close to the truth as the flat-earth view is to nonsense. This is a perfect parallel to the Veispak/Maxim view of the Soviet occupation of Estonia in contrast to the received majority position.
Maxim29 Oct 2006 11:04
It's interesting to note that Merilo has to bring in the "second oldest" truth known about the universe to win any credit for what follows-that Veispak is off the mark again! If the fact that the earth is round automatically qualifies for scratching Veispak off the REAL THINKERS list concerning this subject, then I am even more suspicious of just who is determining intellectual opinion in your Estonian community. Why have Estonians living abroad NEVER given credit to the men who fought on the side of the Soviets, and who, most importantly, formed the now infamous Laskurkorpus, which had a damn site more to do with Estonian freedom fighting than anything in connection with the fighting done on the side and in the name of "greater Germany".
illuminati29 Oct 2006 11:36
"(... most importantly, formed the now infamous Laskurkorpus, which had a damn site more to do with Estonian freedom fighting than anything in connection with the fighting done on the side and in the name of "greater Germany")" ... this type of statement shows a total lack of appreciating the peoples of eastern europe who had to endure the first pass of the soviet system's brutality = nobody wanted the soviets back , except for a few lowlifes and paid agitators
Maxim29 Oct 2006 11:54
Do you mean to say that they wanted the Germans back? Have you any idea what would have happened to Estonia if so-called "German freedom" was unleashed here? It is clear from all the evidence that we wouldn't be much better off than we have proven to be with the Soviets. Let's get one thing clear; it doesn't pay to put down the Soviets at every single opportunity, and then make it look as though the Germans would have turned Estonia into a land of milk and honey. This is simply childish gerfumfengumfffff!!
to maxim29 Oct 2006 12:13
you actually believe estonians should have forgotten the thousands killed in 1940 and the thousands killed, deported or mobalized in 1941 ... and then be thankful that thousands more were killed and deported in 1945, and thousands were deported in 1949 ?
usk ja lootus29 Oct 2006 12:39
Maxim - loe siit tõtt!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...
Viktoriin - Kes MAXIM on29 Oct 2006 12:58
Esimene vihje oli:
sündinud 1939 06 20

Uued vihjed:

2) Suli
3) Ajas firmad RAS Ookeani ja Saare Dolomiidi erastajana pankrotti, et oma rahakotti täita
re - viktoriin29 Oct 2006 14:35
Kas pilti on ka saada?
re - viktoriin29 Oct 2006 16:02
Kahtlen kolmandat vihjet sest ei tundu et sellil oleks niisugust kavalust peas.
Maxim29 Oct 2006 22:00
I see that there is another rise in character assassination here; something that I have avoided at all costs. However, it also seems to me that my critics do not value any kind of opinion that is slightly different to their own. In Estonia Veispak would NEVER have received the kind of reception that he has been received within these pages. All the more does it show that the Editors of EE are an extremely open-minded group of intellectuals, who who would never consider taking on the role of "Politically correct thought police" which my critics have done. In the end, I think that the fact that yet another line of thinking on this subject has been made available to readers, this is the aspect that wins out at the end of the day. Best wishes to all and thank you for all your support.
Toomas Merilo29 Oct 2006 22:15
MAXIM refers to "character assassination (sic)" here.

Well, I would counter that the subject has been examined... and the verdict, painful as it might be, is suicide.
Maxim29 Oct 2006 22:19
Thank you Toomas, and I trust that that comment is in the same light as the previous ones, where someone else has suggested that you have gone light on me in spite of my scribblings. I suppose I should be thankful that the worst I can receive from you is this kind of message. Let me say that I on the other hand have no malice whatsoever toward anyone, and only wish you, as everyone else here, the very best of luck in life.
EE_Lugeja29 Oct 2006 23:19
"In Estonia Veispak would NEVER have received the kind of reception that he has been received within these pages." I guess someone forgot to read the comments to Veispaks article. Now the question is can Maxim read at all. I also give Mr. Merilo a lot of credit for being out in the open and take my hat off to him.
Anonymous30 Oct 2006 05:38
First of all, agitators like Maxim should be ignored.

The guys fighting in the "laskurkorpus" were nearly all members of the communist party and they committed horrible atrocities on Estonian soil, killing wounded Estonian soldiers in the church in Avinurme and driving over war refugees with tanks, for example.

Waffen-SS - the European army. Estonians joined the Waffen-SS in order to protect Estonia and the Estonian people from another red terror and to retaliate for the previous soviet terror wave. My grandfather was one of them, so I know what I'm talking about.

The soviets did NOT liberate Estonia from the German grip, but they re-occupied Estonia. Otto Tief's government was in place when the soviets attacked Estonia, and the German Armed Forces had already left.
Jaak30 Oct 2006 07:13
Just as all of those who were in the Waffen SS were not “Nazis:” those who were forced into Laskurkorpus were not all members of the communist party.
Please take the time to inform yourself about the subject before making ignorant, polarizing and counter productive statements like the one in your previous post.
Anonymous30 Oct 2006 09:23
True, but approximately 80% of the Laskurkorpus' members were members of the communist party whereas none of the Waffen-SS soldiers were members of the NSDAP.
Jaak30 Oct 2006 10:17
Where do you get 80% from?
If so, then of the 50,000 men who were mobilized into laskurkorpus, 40,000 were communist party members? That's an awfully large percentage of the total Estonian male population! I wasn't aware that total EKP membership was that large in 1939-44!!

I'm sure there were very few NSDAP members in the Estonian Waffen SS, but the statement about 80% EKP membership is either the result of pure ignorance or a conscious effort to mislead.

On an aside: recent research in Hiiumaa has revealed that a now deceased Toronto right-wing Estonian nationalist was part of the Communist Havituspataljon in the Haapsalu area in 1940-41. You don't have to scratch too far to find his name.
Maxim30 Oct 2006 11:38
I think your trail of questioning is both interesting and revealing, in that it reveals the sorts of answers that I alluded to in my opening comments concerning this article. I think you are very brave to come out with these facts, but if the truth be known, then I read a lot of HONESTY out of what you write. I applaude your bravery and hope that it doesn't make your life as difficult as coming out with the truth has been in my case. Best of luck to you in the future!
Anonymous30 Oct 2006 12:05
Maxim:
In that case, I question your right to take part in any discussion concerning Estonia and Estonians since you have no position to do so.
Maxim30 Oct 2006 12:10
Hmmm-I wonder what gives you the right to determine those sorts of things? Do you muzzle others from contributing elsewhere?? I think you should do a little reality-check on your levels of open-mindedness before you commit to print your strange efforts to silence me.
Gojaak.30 Oct 2006 12:21
Anonymous, why does it look like you're in the business of hijacking opinion? Why haven't you answered the previous question where your numbers didn't add up? Something amiss here, I think.
Anonymous30 Oct 2006 12:58
WOW - Google is really revealing some surprising things today!
Search: Hiiumaa läänemaa hävituspataljon
.30 Oct 2006 06:09
When Veispak says that "the Soviets liberated Tallinn", Maxim says that he's stating his opinion.
When others respond and say that, "the Soviets occupied Tallinn", Maxim says that we're engaged in character assassination, trying to stifle free speech or act like thought-police.
There is a distinct double standard here and it's based on confusion at the basic level -- Maxim doesn't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

Maxim, I'll give you a little primer on this business with the hope that you'll stop using your confusion to harass us:

1) When Veispak says that "the Soviets liberated Tallinn", he's stating a fact. We can say that he's either right or wrong and support our position with logical arguments based on other facts.

2) By contrast, when Veispak says that "this was something good", he's stating his opinion, as he is entitled to do in a free country. In response, we can't say that he's either right or wrong; but we are entitled to doubt and dispute his judgment by asking, for example, where's the good in this so-called liberation which proved to be the opening salvo for 50-year series of maniacal cruelty, gratuitous poverty and ideologically-based injustice?
Maxim30 Oct 2006 06:23
"When others respond and say that, "the Soviets occupied Tallinn", Maxim says that we're engaged in character assassination, trying to stifle free speech or act like thought-police". This is not the portion of correspondence that I refer to as being character assassination. The latter has to do with all the personal venom spat at me for no reason whatsoever! I aacept the fact that you do not like what Veispak has written, but you go to such extreme lengths in the tone of your responses which suggest that as far as your concerned, Veispak should be considered lucky to be alive at all for thinking what he did. I think this is a highly dangerous approach, and limits severly the possibilty of getting a different angle on the subject. Of course, there is also the strong possibility that if you had your way, you would do as they frequently do in North Korea; ban outright any Veispak's that dare to make their presence felt. I certainly hope that opposite viewpoints will always be given a measure of legitimacy in EE.
.30 Oct 2006 09:41
In the dictionary, listed under "obdurate", there's a photo of Maxim.
Anonymous30 Oct 2006 08:52
Selge! Tänu Googleile.
.30 Oct 2006 12:40
From their style, it appears that the last five postings have been composed by the same person.
What are you trying to achieve Maxim?
Toomas Merilo30 Oct 2006 16:14
I wish to apologize for one of my posts that upon re-reading I realized had the potential for being misinterpreted:

In response to one of Maxim’s posts complaining about “Character assassination”, I responded wishing to draw attention to the fact that Maxim’s complaint was preposterous in that any harm done to his “character” or “reputation” was totally self inflicted i.e. “Character Suicide”.

That my post could be construed as malicious or wishing anybody harm is unfortunate and I am sorry. Nevertheless, I am confounded by Maxim’s views.

And no, nobody has approached me to say it would be a good idea to apologize… I just felt it was the right thing to do.
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